Cap and Ball and personal defence.

[BowerR64]

I thought the idea of the police going to a 40 or a 45 cal was the heavier bullet for "better stopping power" over the 9?

Ive heard people say that it isnt the speed they wanted but the larger heavier bullet with the "better knock down power"

Something like "we want to stop the bad guy but not hit grandma behind him"

 

[PRM]

"we want to stop the bad guy but not hit grandma behind him"

Considering the majority of shots fired under stress miss the intended target, that's interesting. In most police shootings only about a 2/10 hit ratio exist. It's not the shots that strike the target that are a threat to grandma as much as those that speed past the threat. Even with modern handguns, there is not enough velocity to create massive secondary wound channels. So, we are basically making holes, and few will disagree with the position that "bigger holes are better." I'll still weigh in on the side of shot placement and not count on a one shot stop. Given that most civilian encounters (and police) do not involve reloading under fire, a c&b can be effective if that's all you have at the time.

 

[whughett]

This thread is beginning to drift...

Don't they all sooner or later.................

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Stressed,

I won't say what I think of that idea, but I hope you don't try to prove it by sticking a Colt Navy in your belt and walking around New York City. I have been in quite a few jails, but always on the right side of the bars - the other side can be quite unpleasant.

Jim

 

[BowerR64]

Considering the majority of shots fired under stress miss the intended target, that's interesting. In most police shootings only about a 2/10 hit ratio exist. It's not the shots that strike the target that are a threat to grandma as much as those that speed past the threat. Even with modern handguns, there is not enough velocity to create massive secondary wound channels. So, we are basically making holes, and few will disagree with the position that "bigger holes are better." I'll still weigh in on the side of shot placement and not count on a one shot stop. Given that most civilian encounters (and police) do not involve reloading under fire, a c&b can be effective if that's all you have at the time.

Its what i heard some one say when the question was asked about 17 rounds in a 9mm vs. 8 in a 45acp

I prefer 17 rounds over 8 and then i heard that. The larger slower 45 had better stopping power and wouldnt travel threw walls like the 9 did or something.

I didnt really question it because i dont follow all that much.

These black powder handguns are the largest caliber handguns i have and shoot. I had a .44 mag super black hawk and traded it for a 357/9 convertable blackhawk.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

I don't mind thread drifts, I learn more that way. I had a mathematics professor when I was a freshman at PCC in 1969. The guy looked more like a logger or longshoreman which come to find out he had been both in his younger years plus a lot more including a bartender and a bordello bouncer, he was in his late fifties and I wouldn't have wanted to cross him even then. He would go of on tangents about what he had done and experienced in his life and the whole class was held captive on the edge of their seats waiting for more. When the bell rang he would say "and I expect such and such done by next class". I learned a lot more about life than mathematics in that class, but not all education is by the book or the thread.

 

[BowerR64]

ofitg started it when he started talking about penetration.

Its easy to distracted then.

 

[AbitNutz]

This video is not easy to watch but it puts forward an interesting notion....there's not much to choose from between pistol calibers. The difference between 9mm, 38, 45, etc... are not enough to matter. Nothing really changes until you go up an order of magnitude to rifle calibers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA

 

[PRM]

I prefer 17 rounds over 8

And that has it's positive side. I've been with the military long enough to have an affection for the 1911 (we were using them when I first enlisted). And, in 2009-2010, I deployed as part of a MTT team that was embedded with the Afghan Police. We were issued M4s and the Beretta M9. Given the environment, I was glad to have the 15 round 9mm weapon system VS an 8. But, the bottom line, if you were having to go to a pistol instead of the .223, the situation has already gone far South.

Not to contribute to thread drift... How bout them Lemats.

"It's users included General Beauregard, Maj. Gens. Richard H. Anderson and J.E.B. Stuart, and Colonel George S. Patton."

http://civilwarhandgun.com/lemats.htm

9 Shot .40 cal cylinder with a central .60 caliber smooth bore barrel.

 

[ofitg]

ofitg started it when he started talking about penetration.

Its easy to distracted then.

ofitg posted gelatin test data which was directly related to the original post.

Modern testing/evaluation validates the old war stories that Elmer Keith heard 100 years ago.

 

[jeepnik]

When I'm feeling whimsical or just born in the wrong century, I will carry my 3" 1860 Army.

Having seen what it will do to a yote at about 35yds (yes, they are smaller and lighter than most folks) I feel pretty comfortable.

I will admit it would take much longer to reload than a modern firearm. But, "IF" I've had to fire all six (yes, the 1860 has safety notches and can be carried with all six chambers loaded, never understood why the 1873 Colt didn't have them), I'll just use the smoke screen to fade away.

 

[whughett]

Imagine if you will a warm summer evening around the camp fire somewhere on the great plains. A bunch of indian braves are sitting around discussing whos arrow how many hands long fletched with what bird feathers tipped with what piece of rock was more effective in bringing down whatever.

Then as now the bottom line is still shot placement.

 

[Foto Joe]

yes, the 1860 has safety notches and can be carried with all six chambers loaded, never understood why the 1873 Colt didn't have them

Since we've already been accused of drifting....

The 1873 or SAA was indeed designed to be carried with all six holes filled. The safety works in the same manner as the Colts earlier designs in that the hammer/firing pin can be lowered (carefully) and rested so that the firing pin nests quite nicely right between the case heads on the rear of the cylinder. This locks the cylinder in place so that it can't be turned until the hammer/firing pin is pulled rearward.

If I recall (and I could be wrong), it was Ruger who came up with the slogan "Load 5 And Stay Alive" years ago because a Ruger could not be safed in the same manner as a Colt. Sorry but if I wanted a 5-shooter I would have bought a 5-shooter.

 

[jeepnik]

Since we've already been accused of drifting....

The 1873 or SAA was indeed designed to be carried with all six holes filled. The safety works in the same manner as the Colts earlier designs in that the hammer/firing pin can be lowered (carefully) and rested so that the firing pin nests quite nicely right between the case heads on the rear of the cylinder. This locks the cylinder in place so that it can't be turned until the hammer/firing pin is pulled rearward.

If I recall (and I could be wrong), it was Ruger who came up with the slogan "Load 5 And Stay Alive" years ago because a Ruger could not be safed in the same manner as a Colt. Sorry but if I wanted a 5-shooter I would have bought a 5-shooter.

Hmm, never tried that with the 1873 Colt. I do recall seeing early B&W movies (yea, I know it's Hollywood), that were made before Ruger existed. In a few of these, the gunfighter kept the sixth chamber under the firing pin stuffed with a rolled up bill to pay for his funeral. Real, probably not, but it does show that someone thought of it before Ruger.

I've got to look, but I think Elmer Keith in one of his books(Sixguns?) suggested keeping an empty chamber under the firing pin.

 

[Foto Joe]

Go ahead and try that for an experiment, using smokeless you might get away with it. Unfortunately if you were to try it with a 45 Colt loaded with about 35gr of 3f Black Powder I think you'd find that the bill that you rolled up and stuffed into the empty chamber would more than likely get fried by the fifth shot. One of these days I might just try it with one of my Black Powder guns just for grins.

 

[Old Fuff]

The Old Fuff will drift a bit more, because a safety issue is involved.

When it was originally introduced in 1873 the Single Action Army revolver was intended to be carried with the trigger resting in the safety notch on the hammer. Early .45 Colt cartridges had very thin and small diameter rims that were rounded on the edge because the case was formed out of sheet stock. Resting the hammer so the firing pin was between two chambers was not considered to be safe. At the same time when the trigger was in the safety notch the cylinder bolt had not dropped far enough to release the cylinder so that it could rotate.

But they soon discovered that if the gun was dropped, or the hammer spur otherwise struck a hard blow, the tip of the trigger, or edge of the hammer notch (or both) could break and the hammer fall hard enough to set off a primer.

So the final solution was to rest the hammer fully down on an empty chamber. It worked then, and it still works now. If you seriously think you are going to need more then 5 shots before reloading you're carrying the wrong kind of revolver.

 

[BHP FAN]

Back when the only handgun I owned was a .36 Sherrif's model '51, that what I carried.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I kept my Ruger loaded for about 2 years. Several weeks ago I had need of it and the first five caps did not go off. They were cci no. 11's which I have used with no problems in the past. When I recapped after 5 more no go's all 5 went boom. Powder was 777 2f. Gun was stored in an a/c house and no lube was used.

 

[barneyrw]

As far as concealed carry of blackpowder pistols, I think Federal law is being confused with State CCW laws. Federal Law does not consider blackpowder firearms a firearm as far as regulation is concerned. You can ship them directly from one person to another, withour regulation as far as Federal Law is concerned.
Now CCW laws are regulated by each State. I think most States that have CCW regulations also include blackpowder pistols in those regulations.

 

[BHP FAN]

I have a couple BHP's I could carry now, and a coupla .45's....but you will use what you have when you need to protect yourself, or others. It's really not about the tool, it's about the mind set.

 

[Texas Moon]

A Walker or Dragoon loaded max with RB's is no slouch in the ballistic department.
It hits harder than most modern ammo.
Would I carry one for SD? Only if I had nothing else.

 

[Crawdad1]

Ofitg,

That's some eye opening data there and good information for people who want to do more hunting with their black powder revolvers. I can pretty much hunt with my 1860 Army all year long. That wouldn't bother me one bit.

 

[RPRNY]

The .36 cal (Navy) was intended to be used with RB to shoot people. The 44 cal (Army) was intended to be able to put down both men and horses. It was during the Mexican - American War in the late 1840s (for which of course the Walker was designed and built) that conicals were introduced to mainstream revolver shooting. There is a story that one reason 300 or so Walkers blew up was because conicals were so new that troopers were loading them backwards because they thought the pointy ends were intended to make loading easier. Seems hard to believe but where there's smoke, there's often fire.

Even soft lead conicals will penetrate very well. On the smaller sized average man of the day, I would imagine through and throughs were common, and provided no vital organs were hit, offered potentially greater odds of survival than a rapidly expanding RB pushing bits of clothing along with it into a deep and messy wound cavity. 44 cal conicals will have been Hell on horses.

 

[kBob]

Loading the conicals backward should have made no difference in pressure. except to possibly make it less.

Some folks load .45ACP SWC backwards in NMA Remingtons today.

More likely they blew up because they were not properly heat treated. Or even left uncleaned until corrosion weekend the chamberwalls.

How many Italian Repros have you heard of blowing up?

-kBob

 

[Foto Joe]

The stories of Walkers "blowing up" become more mythical and legendary with the passing of each year.

In fact Walkers "did" blow up, so did the occasional Dragoon and subsequently 1860 Army's. Although the facts of the circumstances have long since been lost, it's commonly held that the Walker chambers in particular held enough powder to cause the metallurgy of the day to fail.