Cap and Ball and personal defence.

[whughett]

This may be of some interest to those that carry a c&b for personal defence.

Elmer Keith in the 1961 edition of "Six Guns The Standard Reference Work"
Chapter One, History of the six gun.

Mr Keith had aquired an 1851 Navy Colt, 36cal from a Major R.E. Stratton, 1st Texas regiment under Lee. The engraved colt was one of a matched pair, the other having been lost along with his left arm by Statton in a gun fight.

Mr Keith goes on to say the the Major had told him that the old colt had probly see more service as a man killer than any Colt in existense, Mr Stratton said that he preferred the round ball with a chamber full of F.F.G to the pointed conical bullet. Mr Keith, citing another conversation with a Civil War Union Officer, one Sam Fletcher in which Fletcher claimed that the round ball in his Navy Colts dropped enemy cavalrymen much better and took all the fight out of them, whereas the pointed bullet would only wound and leave them fighting.


For my self I have no intention of carring an 18th century designed, modern replica hand gun in place of one of my several center fires, but if I were I might be inclined to load up with round ball and FFG powder.

 

[[email protected]]

That is most correct. I knew Elmer well. Spent a week with him at his house
in Slmon Idaho in 1964. He was born about 50 miles east of me here in Missouri

 

[PRM]

I have carried them in the past, and probably will again. More on the farm than anywhere else. I really don't have any issue with a C&B Vs a modern gun. Reloading is slower, but how many times will that be an issue? Yea, you can get all kind of what ifs... But, the fact for me is I have had few issues with my Colt 2nd Generation Navies, and one of my favorite hunting arms is my .44 Cal SS Uberti/Remington. Would I choose them for use in an area where the threat level could be a significant issue - No. And, that only because there are better options - not because they are less effective.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Cap 'n ball would not be my first choice, but it's better than using profanity before you get stabbed or shot or beaten with a blunt instrument.

 

[Pulp]

I've never done any upgrades to any of my percussions, such as Treso or Slix-Shot nipples, or filling the safety notch in the hammer. I shoot them in CAS. As long as I do my part in firmly seating caps, mine have been "stake your life on them" reliable. A couple of matches ago, I didn't firmly seat the caps on the first stage and had to go around again, one took three hammer strikes before it went off. I see modern guns having more problems than my percussions.

While I would not recommend them as primary personal protection guns, I'd sure hate to play "Catch the bullet" with them.

 

[ThorinNNY]

James Butler Hickok aka "Wild Bill " did quite well with a pair of .36 cal Navy Colts. He paid a lot of attention to keeping them cleaned, properly lubricated,and dry.He would replace the percussion caps every morning.I`m sure there were people who thought that might have been wasteful, but Hickock thought his life was worth the extra expense. I don`t recall his having problems with failure to fire.
After the Civil War the government issued a report stating that the round ball was a far more effective man stopper than the conicals.
Elmer Keith seemed to agree with this assessment, but did say if he needed to shoot a steer through the skull, a conical would do a better job because it penetrated deeper.

 

[Foto Joe]

Although I don't think that carrying a Black Powder revolver for personal defense is a good idea, it is purely a personal decision and nobody's business except the person doing it. Having said that, any gun that doesn't get stored in my gun safe is loaded whether it's Black Powder or smokeless. Another name for an empty gun is "club".

 

[ofitg]

Gelatin Test Data.....

.357 Mag, Rem 158gr SJHP @ 1235 fps

Penetration 19.0 inches
Final Diameter 0.50 inches
Crush Cavity 3.73 cubic inches
Stretch Cavity 35.2 cubic inches

.44 Percussion, 141gr round ball @ 935 fps

Penetration 19.8 inches
Final Diameter 0.48 inches
Crush Cavity 3.58 cubic inches
Stretch Cavity 38.8 cubic inches

 

[swathdiver]

A round ball delivers nearly all of its energy upon impact, the soft lead expands better than them fancy new bullets. Pointy conicals punch two little holes in a man and keep on going. Keith type conicals punch 2 BIG holes through man or game destroying massive amounts of bone and tissue in the process.

 

[Foto Joe]

ofitg,

How much powder were you pushing the RB with just out of curiosity?

 

[BowerR64]

Ill guess 30-35g of T7

 

[ofitg]

How much powder were you pushing the RB with just out of curiosity?

Joe, that percussion revolver gelatin data was published by Ed Sanow in the Feb'98 issue of HANDGUNS magazine.

He was using 35 gr of 3Fg in a Colt Army revolver.

 

[rodwha]

My guess would be Goex powder or something similar.

33 grns of 3F T7 pushed a .457" RB to 1062 fps from a ROA.

I had Tom at Accurate Molds design a FN bullet for a ROA that takes up less volume than a RB. It weighs 160 grns (if cast from WWs). I think this would potentially outperform a RB.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-160B-D.png

I'm saving up my pennies to have him redesign the 180 grn bullet (wider nose) along with a 250-255 grn bullet for hunting. Then I'll save some more pennies and have him reconfigure this 160 grn bullet with a wider nose (~.325").

 

[AbitNutz]

After watching Mike's videos (Duelist1954). He shows that bullets, specifically Kaido's, have greater penetration than RB. At the end of his series, #6 video, he states that any hunting load should use Triple 7 and Kaido's 255 for maximum penetration.

Am I missing something here?

 

[ldlfh7]

I carry my 58 Remmy for personal protection/eradication for critters while on the farm. I would think it would work for just about anything except large bears and such. I have shot 42 grains pydrodex-p out of it and it was a blast literally.

 

[Oldnamvet]

I don't understand why this is. A heavier bullet going faster as well as having a smaller diameter and it doesn't penetrate further than a lighter and larger diameter bullet that is going at a lesser velocity.

 

[ofitg]

After watching Mike's videos (Duelist1954). He shows that bullets, specifically Kaido's, have greater penetration than RB. At the end of his series, #6 video, he states that any hunting load should use Triple 7 and Kaido's 255 for maximum penetration.

Am I missing something here?

I don't think there's any conflict/incongruity..... the extra penetration from a conical slug could be desireable for hunting large critters, but 18 or 19 inches from a round ball is plenty (some experts say it's actually excessive) for self-defense purposes.

 

[AbitNutz]

Getting in to another RB versus bullet debate is just this side insane and since I'm now mostly sane...

There are things I do like about RB. They're easy to load with the on gun ram. They're easy to carry. They take no preparation...no sizing or lubing. If you use a pre-lube wad and don't grease over the chamber mouth, they're not quite as messy.

Me, I use a loader, cast all my own bullets, size and lube them with my Star. I like soft lead bullets. I get all around good results. They're my choice.

As far as using it for self defense? My ROA is really reliable. The last two weekends I shot 10 full cylinders with ZERO cleaning. No issues at all. No soft caps, no cap trash jams. No bullet jumping cylinder jams...nada.

The only issue I had was when the wind shifted and I got suffocated by 45 gr of T7 coming back at me. WOW! Just one shot left enough of a cloud to classify the air as Chinese.

I still wouldn't opt for it over a modern QUALITY cartridge automatic, revolver, rifle, shotgun.

 

[ofitg]

I don't understand why this is. A heavier bullet going faster as well as having a smaller diameter and it doesn't penetrate further than a lighter and larger diameter bullet that is going at a lesser velocity.

The .357 would penetrate MUCH deeper than the RB if the .357 didn't expand.

 

[Armored farmer]

I thought maybe my percussion revolvers might solve our black bear worries while fishing in the Canadian bush. It didn't take long to find out that the Canadian government would gladly slap you in jail if you bring one across the border..... just like any other handgun.

 

[Jim K]

Just don't forget that because a C&B revolver is a non-gun for purchase under federal and most state/local laws, it is still considered a deadly or dangerous weapon and the laws on carrying a handgun as well as laws on armed robbery, assault with a deadly weapon, etc., apply to a percussion revolver exactly like they do to a modern handgun.

Jim

 

[stressed]

Jim K, I'm willing to be if you were charged with carrying a dangerous weapon if you carried a C&B revolver without a CCW you could have it dismissed with the right lawyer.

Even the ATF states on their own page they are not firearms, nor are their ammo and powder considered ammunition. I believe it says even felons can have them. Now I am sure someone might get charged with having ammunition, but it would be dismissed if fought.

I know a girl who was charged with felon in possession because she had BB guns for her son, which is technically unconstitutional, but her methhead self gets away with so much involving drugs that I thought it was fitting even though she had no assets to fight it and pled guilty.

Point is, yeah you may charged in doing so, but you shouldn't be. Might be a nice settlement if you are charged.

 

[StrawHat]

...Jim K, I'm willing to be if you were charged with carrying a dangerous weapon if you carried a C&B revolver without a CCW you could have it dismissed with the right lawyer...

With the right lawyer, you can get a murder charge dismissed IF there is a technicality he can use.

Bottom line is a gun, any gun, can be a dangerous weapon regardless of what a rule book considers it. A prudent person is willing to stand by his actions and accept the consequences.

 

[kBob]

Bottom line is I can not believe we are doing this all again.........

-kBob

 

[ldlfh7]

This thread is beginning to drift...