Carbon 15

[ping]

A friend of mine was looking at AR's and asked me a question i could not answer. he was looking at the bushmaster model 90689 carbon 15. i know nothing about the carbon piece of this. what are they talking about. i only buy rock river and i am very conservative. i like the basic A2, anyway what does the carbon comment mean. is it something i should tell my friend to stay away from. they seem pretty cheap - maybe to cheap. so many manufacturers of AR stuff now. i pretty much stay with armalite, bushmaster, colt, dpms and rock river.

anyway any info on this would be great.

thanks

 

[ford8nr]

As far as I know the 'carbon' refers to the lower, it is made up of a 'carbon composite' ( high tech plastic ). I've read varing reviews. For the same money look at the MP15 Sport, I just bought one for $599. My early review of it is in a post earlier this week titled of all things MP15 Sport. My early tests of the sport have been very good and others who actually own or have shot them concure.

 

[silicosys4]

I have shot the "carbon" ar-15 and wasn't impressed. It is indeed a polymer lower, and polymer upper receiver. It was light, but "flexy", had multiple FTF issues, felt rough when disassembled, with mold marks still left from manufacturing, and overall didn't give a good impression of itself.

 

[meanmrmustard]

You're MUCH better off forgetting that rifle exists.

If a well made rifle that doesn't hurt the wallet is your goal, M&P Sport. Or, like you already own, a RRA. The Carbon is a nice thought, but lacking.

 

[MarshallDodge]

What meanmrmustard said.

 

[Captcurt]

I have shot the "carbon" ar-15 and wasn't impressed. It is indeed a polymer lower, and polymer upper receiver. It was light, but "flexy", had multiple FTF issues, felt rough when disassembled, with mold marks still left from manufacturing, and overall didn't give a good impression of itself.

Didn't impress me either. Ordered one for a friends daugther. Needed some major trigger work and wasn't even close to the quality of a DPMS. I am with the OP on the Rock River and Colt for first pick, but would like to try a Windham before I got serious.

 

[au01st]

I had one. Loved it. Light and worked flawlessly with steel cased ammo at my range. I sold it because I needed to come up with some money to relocate for a job, but I wouldn't hesitate to get another.

 

[Trent]

I had the pistol version blow up on me.

 

[Cornhusker77]

We've had one for 3 or 4 years
It's OK, works well, but I prefer my Windham

 

[ping]

Ok, I now understand. cool - thanks all for info. I think I will just stay with what I know for my friend.

 

[jim243]

anyway any info on this would be great.

Like all new firearms today, different materials are being used than what we are use to. The Glock is what 40 years old now and it was one of the first poly handguns out. Now almost all handguns have parts made of polimers. Hard to beat the lower cost due to the use of polimers. Let's see, your boat is made of carbon fiber, your laptop is made with a carbon fiber shell, even your car/truck/ATV/cell phone are all carbon fiber.

Bushmaster thought it would try out an AR made with a carbon fiber upper and lower. The hand guards and butt stocks have always been of carbon fiber since the 1960's. FNH-USA (ACR & FNAR), SCAR, FNA PS-90, FNA 2000 are all made of carbon fiber as well as new stripped lowers that are coming out as carbon fiber. They are lighter and keeps the cost of manufacturing down so we can afford to keep buying new products and guns.

The people from Windham Weaponry built mine before Remington fired them all and moved their operations to save money. These are the people that made up the old Bushmaster company. Reguardless of what you may have thought of Bushmaster, they made a quality product that was accurate and affordable with good customer service.

The Bushmaster AR C-15 Ultralite has the same metal parts as anyother AR with the exception of the upper and lower receiver, otherwise it is the same as anyother A4 carbine.

Will it last? I do not know, but after 1,000 rounds mine functions perfectly without any problems. I do not use crap ammo it, I reload my own and feel most problems are ammo or magazine related that are posted on the forums.

To make a long story short, in Dec, I was looking to buy a new handgun and came across the rifle on sale at Cabela's, the last one in stock. At $599.00 for a AR carbine I could not pass it up, my intention was to have a winter project gun that I could change and dress up.

Well it is now my favorite and HD/SD gun of choice (I do have others for that purpose). I have changed out the pistol grip (Now a Houghe), the butt stock (Now a MOE) and have added a few extras on it (quad rail, forward grip, bipoid and flash light holder) otherwise it is still stock.

It seems that trying something new is allways hard to do, but sometimes it is the best thing you can do. Will the shooting public warm up to carbon fiber AR's?? I don't know but I am sold, at 5.6 lbs and a price point you can not beat it sold me.

Let us not forget that that car or truck you are driving is 60% carbon fiber as well. Will I get better gas milage from my C-15, I sure get more fun.

Jim



Here is another carbon fiber gun, just one I can not afford

 

[dom1104]

You dont really know what "Carbon Fiber" is do you jim243?

 

[silicosys4]

"carbon fiber" is a sheet of woven fibers of carbon. It can be thought of as very similar to fiberglass, except it is much more difficult to cure properly. It comes in flexible sheets, like fiberglass matting, and It is impregnated with resin and molded, exactly like fiberglass, and yields a very light, very stiff, very high strength product used extensively in very expensive boats and cars, primarily, where saving a few extra pounds over fiberglass and gaining a little extra strength is worth tripling your material cost and manufacturing costs.



http://www.carbonfiberglass.com/ima.../carbon-fiber-fabric/2x2twillroll-228x228.gif

Whereupon the carbon 15, most "polymer" lowers, and almost every "car part" that was mentioned by jim 243 is actually a molded blend of plastics or polymers, with fibrous fillers like glass fibers or carbon fibers added to strengthen the plastic, then is injected as a liquid into a solid mold.

Very nice pictures, Jim...just had to correct you on that

 

[jim243]

Whereupon the carbon 15, most "polymer" lowers, and almost every "car part" that was mentioned by jim 243 is actually a molded blend of plastics or polymers, with fibrous fillers like glass fibers or carbon fibers added to strengthen the plastic, then is injected as a liquid into a solid mold.

Very nice pictures, Jim...just had to correct you on that

Not a problem, Silicosys4, I would rather have a carbon fiber than most of the MIM uppers and lowers on the market today. Very few gun makers still do parts from solid blocks of metal, the CNC process is time consuming and expensive in labor, equipment and tooling. I am more concerned with how the barrel and chamber is made than the stock. The only concern I have with the C-15 is how the upper receiver will hold up, but is easy to replace if needed and not that expensive.

The bolt and bolt carrier group would be another concern, but seems well made and functional on the C-15 (all metal parts). The fit of the carbon fiber upper and lower at least on my rifle was/is much better than I have had on many metal AR's.

If someone want's to spend $1,500 or more on a all metal milled AR, good luck to them I don't since I use mine for fun and not war or zombies (insult intended). (LOL)

The real question is will they hold up and last?? So far so good. I still carry a side arm just in case. The original C-15's made by a different company did not, but after 10 years of research and development and Bushmaster taking over the mfg, I have faith in mine.

Good shooting to all.
Jim

 

[gotboostvr]

Another thing Jim forgot to mention is that your car, boat, plane and Glock where designed from the ground up to utilize various polymers. AR's were designed with metal recievers, changing them later seems like an after thought. AUGs have metal where they need them, holding the trigger groups togther, barrel extensions... I wouldn't want to have to screw a metal reciever extension into a plastic lower, way too easy to strip, and too fragile an area for a plastic.

 

[jim243]

where designed from the ground up to utilize various polymers

This is an interesting descussion. I was just looking around the room, and guess what?
The keyboard this is being typed on, my 32 inch TV, all the remote controls for the TV and recorders, the gateway that the ISP gave us, the monitor, printer, mouse, head set, X-Box and controllers, calculator, pill boxes, tape dispenser, CD's,& VHS's, storage bins, watch, pens, paper shredder, scanner, cigarette lighters, safety hard hat, tool boxes, rifle cleaning kits, my desk chair, waste basket, flash lights, the brand new dish washer we just got, my expensive camera, stocks for my hunting rifles, etc...... are all made from polimers (plastics or one kind or other.) And let's not forget my 12 fishing rods (Yes, they are carbon fiber).

But a plastic AR, heaven forbid. I think we are being a little old fashion on this.

Jim

 

[meanmrmustard]

If someone want's to spend $1,500 or more on a all metal milled AR, good luck to them I don't since I use mine for fun and not war or zombies (insult intended). (LOL)

Laugh it up. Fortune favors the prepared.

Whether its a walking corpse or a desperate undesirable during a socioeconomic collapse, best to be ready!

 

[jim243]

Laugh it up. Fortune favors the prepared.

Whether its a walking corpse or a desperate undesirable during a socioeconomic collapse, best to be ready!

Sorry mustard, I didn't know you were a preper. But with over 20 guns in the house and over 25,000 rounds of ammo, my concern would be food and water for the family, not imaginary zombies, besides they can have all the courpses they want lying at my front door (or back door) dead.

My concern would be Yellowstone going off, it does that every 600,000 years or so and it has been 630,000 years since the last time. (we are overdue) The ash will make it imposible to get around and the acid rain will kill every living thing.

An AR or AK will not help you with this.
Jim

 

[silicosys4]

Jim243, I am glad that you have had excellent luck with your gun, and I won't deny that polymers can and do successfully replace many formerly metal items. I would even say that with the right manufacturing and design, a company could make a very good polymer AR-15. One problem so far is to this date, polymers have been a cost cutting addition to the AR-15 family, instead of a benefit or improvement, but with the right engineering and maybe some modifications to account for the flexibility of polymers, etc.. I'm sure you could come up with something very reliable. However, I am not a big fan of polymer guns in general, and I could show you why in 3 minutes with a coarse metal file and a hacksaw. Where I'd destroy the finish on most steel guns, I'd destroy a polymer frame. Polymer just isn't a long term, hell or highwater solution for a serious, you-life-depends-on-it rifle. Steel guns IMO are more durable, and more suited for duty guns.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Sorry mustard, I didn't know you were a preper. But with over 20 guns in the house and over 25,000 rounds of ammo, my concern would be food and water for the family, not imaginary zombies, besides they can have all the courpses they want lying at my front door (or back door) dead.

My concern would be Yellowstone going off, it does that every 600,000 years or so and it has been 630,000 years since the last time. (we are overdue) The ash will make it imposible to get around and the acid rain will kill every living thing.

An AR or AK will not help you with this.
Jim

If it does, I'll come help you bro. Especially if primeval Zombies or released.

Seriously though, weird crap happens.

 

[jim243]

Seriously though, weird crap happens.

True. Just look at New England last year where all the bridges were washed away and they were trapped for months.

http://www.accuweather.com/en/weath...ing-in-new-england-from-hurricane-irene/54403

Good luck and thanks for the offer of help, I'll keep a spot open for you on the zombie range. (LOL)

Jim

 

[Fremmer]

Mustard is right, my sources indicate an increasing chance of a very serious zombie uprising in early november.

 

[jim243]

Polymer just isn't a long term, hell or highwater solution for a serious, you-life-depends-on-it rifle. Steel guns IMO are more durable, and more suited for duty guns.

I agree with you, but there is not any part of the rifle I can't replace by myself. (nice thing about the AR's) And the parts are not that expensive.

The only example I can give is I am a heavy smorker (I know not good) and would only buy Zippo lighters. Well a good Zippo is about $30.00 or more now and I am using the 99 cent cheap plastic ones. You can get a lot of use from a 99 cent lighter. I think they stopped the $10.00 chinese kockoff ones from comming into the US. (besides they didn't work all that well)

I bought this rifle as a project gun, so my expectations were not that high to start with. I have spent a lot more for handguns and other AR's, so I was pleasently supprised as to how it performed and the value it is for an inexpensive AR. With prices keep going up and up, it is a good alternitive for the first time AR buyer (So is the M&P 15) as long as they realize that it will not last forever.

Jim

 

[Quentin]

I'd go with a quality AR with 7075-T6 receivers instead of taking a chance with a Carbon 15. If you compare the difference in weight it's not that much plus the extra weight is close to your body so less of a factor than if it were hanging off the muzzle.

I weighed a friend's C15 and my AR and here are the results:

#1 - Bushmaster Carbon-15
Carbon 14.5" M4 carbine length upper with BM AR-15 BCG, charging handle, integrated rear sight and standard hanguards ---- 3lbs, 12.1oz

Carbon lower with BM LPK, BM receiver extension kit, standard buffer and M4 stock ---- 1lbs 14.1oz

3lbs, 12.1oz + 1lb 14.1oz = 5lb 10.2oz basic C15 rifle


#2 - Daniel Defense 16" LW midlength upper with DD M16 BCG, Gunfighter Mod 4 charging handle, MBUS Gen 2 rear sight and MOE handguards/pistol grip with IWC QD mount ---- 4lbs, 0.6oz

S&W M&P15 lower with DD LPK, BCM receiver extension kit, H buffer and CTR stock ---- 2lbs 3.7oz

4lbs, 0.6oz + 2lbs 3.7oz = 6lb 4.3oz basic rifle

Now if you put in a standard buffer instead of the H buffer, removed the IWC QD mount and put on an M4 stock instead of the CTR, the difference in weight of the complete rifles would be about 5lb 10oz vs. 6lb or about 6 ounces. I bet the midlength MOE handguards weigh a couple ounces less than the carbine length handguards so it could only be a 4 oz difference.

And don't forget the DD BCG has an M16 carrier instead of the Bushmaster AR-15 carrier which is another 1/2 oz difference so now we're down to maybe 3.5 oz!

Hmmm, I bet the BCM Gunfighter charging handle weighs more than the BM CH. Anyway, you get the picture.

ETA:
Last argument: aluminum receivers last forever, we don't know about carbon/polymer in ARs yet. The lower receiver is the firearm so I'd be concerned that a carbon lower might not hold up and then you have to go through the registration process all over again for a new serial number/firearm.


Man, I keep coming up with additions. Sorry. But I forgot the obvious, the C15 has a 14.5" barrel while the Daniel Defense is 16". That's got to be another 1.5 oz or so. The C15 receivers might only save 2 oz!

 

[Hammerhead6814]

Only polymer lower I'm sold on is the CAV-15 MK II. The receivers that have broken have had a good reason (like someone jerry-rigging a .45 ACP mag adapter in it). NFA, Plum-crazy, and even a few Carbon-15's commonly show up broken in half at the buffer tube in picture threads.

I like the idea of a composite/polymer lower. But so far, I think everyone but Calvary Arms (now GWACS armory) have been half-assing them. NFA's plastic FCG works pretty well though.