Carry Gun: Thinking About Rethinking

Howland937

Howland937

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As mentioned in another thread, a couple of things happened recently that have me considering rethinking what I carry.

The first thing was shooting my carry gun (Officer size SIG 1911 .45) in a competition and getting smoked. Granted, I was shooting my bone stock gun against a CZ Orange running an optic, Comp, etc...but felt like I should have been able to make it respectable. I didn't.

The 2nd thing was when I was shooting with my 13 year old son last weekend, he decided he wanted to try shooting my carry gun. He'd never shot anything bigger than 9mm in my Dan Wesson Guardian. 2 rounds fired. First hit the 8" steel at 25'. 2nd went who knows where, but the recoil really bothered him and he was done shooting it.

So my concerns are:
1- I can't honestly say I carry the gun I shoot best. I know I can't carry a competition level gun, but I do shoot the DW better. It's got a bigger profile and isn't as easy to conceal though.

2-I don't choose what to carry based on how someone else shoots my gun, but the thought crossed my mind... We'd talked about a situation when we're out somewhere, things happen. I become incapacitated and I'm unable to defend my kid or myself. He knows how I carry and how the gun functions and would ideally give himself a chance at least. But he can't shoot this gun.

Overthinking? Worth considering? Complete overhaul needed?
 
Howland937 said:
1- I can't honestly say I carry the gun I shoot best. I know I can't carry a competition level gun, but I do shoot the DW better. It's got a bigger profile and isn't as easy to conceal though.
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There's a DWX Compact now, though I might wait and see if they come out with one compatible with optics if you're particularly enamored with the DWX. But I don't think that's the issue. As a long-time 1911 fan, my thoughts are as follows:
  • 45ACP is harder to shoot fast and accurately than 9mm. You got beaten by someone with a 9mm.
  • Even worse, the smaller the pistol the harder recoil is going to be to manage. It looks like the Ultra Compact isn't that light, but it'll be harder to shoot well than a Commander, or a full sized 1911.
  • He had optics. You had a 4" sight radius.
  • The DWX is going to be close to a custom gun in performance as far as trigger feel, accuracy, and so on. How's yours?
  • If he's shooting a DWX and an optic in competition, I bet he's pretty dialed in as far as the loads he's shooting. Are you?
  • I frequently carry larger pistols. It's a wardrobe issue more than a pistol size issue IMO.
Now, if you want to stay with the 1911 pattern, a few thoughts:
  1. Maybe buy a better gun that you can still conceal? My recommendations won't be cheap, but Ed Brown's EVO series are great shooters with great sights (or compatibility with optics) that are available in lightweight and steel frames. Figure 10 rounds in the gun. Wilson Combat has their SFX9 series that offer 10 rounds in a gun about the size of yours (the 3.25" model) with a flush magazine, and 15 or 16 in a magazine that extends the butt a bit lower so you have more to grab on to. I've got the Kimber KDS9C which isn't that concealable, but I just purchased a 15 shot concealable 1911 from Alpha Foxtrot that takes Glock compatible magazines, offers a 3.5" barrel (or 4" if you want a threaded barrel) and takes optics. There are lots of choices in 9mm that are still 1911-ish that will offer you much better control and faster times because they are 9mm, and some are very concealable. Canik looks to have a near-1911 trigger in pistols that cost a third as much if you're not committed to the 1911 - I've never shot one but this looks like it's very shootable and concealable, or it's shootable if you use longer magazines in it (I'd probably go larger).
  2. Maybe try an optic yourself? More accurate and a single focal plane has got to be a real advantage. You can also zero from 25 yards and be within inches of your target at all the distances you'll be shooting at.
  3. If you want to compete, find a target load that shoots the same point of aim as your carry loads, buy a lot of it, and shoot the hell outta that gun when you're getting ready. Run drills similar to what you're doing to compete, and do them under time pressure.
But if you wanna race against race guns, you probably want something nearly as good in your hand and lots of practice. I mean, I'm sure there's someone out there that can smoke the guy you were up against using nothing but a stock Glock 17 and Winchester White Box, but that guy only got that good with loads of practice under his belt.

Either way, it's hard to beat someone shooting 20,000 rounds per year out of a $2,500 pistol/optic unless you're shooting a comparable amount with gear that's in the same league.

My (non-competitive) 2¢
 
Maybe consider a Commander size 9mm 1911. A little bigger but not much, same controls, pretty potent ammunition available, and 9mm isn’t hard to control.
 
First, about me, NOT a fan of self loaders. Okay, that is out of the way. The smaller the pistol, the more you have to concentrate on the basics. Actually, that is true with all handguns. Officer size pistols are easy to conceal but less than ideal to shoot. Easier to shoot and as easy to conceal is the CCO style of pistol. I have a Dan Wesson CCO. If I were more confident in my ability to use the pistol, I would carry it.

Next up in size is the Commander. Still easy to carry and it gives you one additional round.

The easiest to shoot and still easy to carry is the full size 1911. Longer barrel makes it the easiest to shoot and the grip frame is the same as the Commander so not hard to carry or conceal.

If you have the confidence to use them well, any of the last three are good choices.

And if 45 is to much for you, they come in a variety of lesser cartridges.

Kevin
 
Not meaning to step on anyone's toes but I think when the plastic fantastic's were introduced with the DA action triggers the double stack magazines were introduced about the same time also. That was because the double action triggers were so bad it took twice as many rounds to hit the target as it did with a nice single action/single stack.
 
frogfurr said:
Not meaning to step on anyone's toes but I think when the plastic fantastic's were introduced with the DA action triggers the double stack magazines were introduced about the same time also. That was because the double action triggers were so bad it took twice as many rounds to hit the target as it did with a nice single action/single stack.
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Double stack detachable pistol mags started with the Savage M1907 and really took off with the Browning HiPower in 1935, both of which were single-action.

Single actions do usually have good triggers, but often also a high bore-axis. I wouldn't feel outgunned with a 1911 but still shoot a (shudder) Glock better, with the advantages of less weight and higher capacity. YMMV, of course.
 
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frogfurr said:
Thank you for correcting me. Wonder why the double stacks didn't catch on back then?
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Well, the US military was still looking for a .45 manstopper, and a double-stack .45 grip would have been a tall order for the average soldier around 1910 as folks were of generally smaller stature then.

As to why more smallbore pistols didn't immediately adopt them- I dunno. Gotta remember, however, all automatic pistols were considered less than reliable for many decades even after widespread military adoption. Look at how long American police departments held on to their trusty .38 revolvers.

Reliable magazines are always a difficult engineering task. I think many early auto pistol makers had their work cut out just designing a decent single-stack and felt going right to a double would be too much of a reach, even though the concept was certainly understood. Heck, Mauser was using a double-stack internal box rifle magazine by 1893.
 
I grew up on the steel 5” .45acp 1911 and like you, I enjoy shooting .45 on this platform, but I believe that 9mm has real advantages in speed and cost. So, I ordered a 4” 9mm double stack, without the grip safety, which I should receive by the end of summer. In the mean time, I discovered that I like the new M&P 2.0 “Apex” triggers. I also like the grip and manual safety on the just released M&P 2.0 3.6” compact in optics ready suppressor height sights. In fact, the compact fits my hand and the safety/trigger make it a very easy/fast shooting gun. The DWX compact was mentioned above, but for less money, I picked up the new Shadow 2 Compact. This trigger is not a finely tuned 1911, but it is really good and the manual safety is perfectly placed. I decided to try the Holosun MRS EPS in green on both compacts and with dry firing, consistent presentation was a snap, so to speak. My only previous experience with dot sights were two Leupolds... a great company with great after sales support. Lastly, I’m not sure that I would have put money down on a high end 4” 9mm build, if I had already purchased the 3.6” M&P.
 
goon said:
Maybe consider a Commander size 9mm 1911. A little bigger but not much, same controls, pretty potent ammunition available, and 9mm isn’t hard to control.
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goon said:
if you're not committed to the 1911
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I'm so far pretty committed to 1911. I have the Sig .45 Ultra Compact I carry, Dan Wesson Guardian that's a bobtailed Commander size aluminum frame 9mm, Sig Match Elite 9mm and 38 Super (full size, all steel), Full size Sig.45 (all steel) and 2 of the Sig P238 .380's that are 1911-ish.

I typically shoot all of them well, but rarely shoot reloads through my carry gun...so I've never tried to tailor a load for it. I carry Hornady Critical Defense or whatever they call it with 200gr XTP's in it and since it was raining last match and I was already wearing it, I decided to shoot it instead of dragging other guns out.

I knew I was outclassed in that round and basically conceding defeat, but I just wanted to see the difference. I've beaten the guy plenty of times in the past and we're probably pretty even overall.
 
A CZ PCR against a 1911 Commander to me isn't a fair fight to me.
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In competition, there's such a thing as fair/unfair. In a self-defense encounter there's only whether you can shoot better and faster than the other guy with your equipment or whether you lose. You get no handicap for the gun you pick and no consideration if he's picked a gun that is easier to shoot and holds more rounds than yours.
 
Howland937 said:
I'm so far pretty committed to 1911. I have the Sig .45 Ultra Compact I carry, Dan Wesson Guardian that's a bobtailed Commander size aluminum frame 9mm, Sig Match Elite 9mm and 38 Super (full size, all steel), Full size Sig.45 (all steel) and 2 of the Sig P238 .380's that are 1911-ish.

I typically shoot all of them well, but rarely shoot reloads through my carry gun...so I've never tried to tailor a load for it. I carry Hornady Critical Defense or whatever they call it with 200gr XTP's in it and since it was raining last match and I was already wearing it, I decided to shoot it instead of dragging other guns out.
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Well, I bet you shoot the Guardian better than the Sig Officer. I bet the Match Elite, in 9mm is even easier to shoot (what's it, 45 ounces loaded?)

That just leaves the issue of optics (which I'm still working through myself as my eyes age) and practice. Are you working drills similar to the stuff you're doing in competition? Are you shooting 1,000 rounds per month? 2,000?
 
if you are justifiably concerned about “less gun abled” companions being able to quickly and effectively use your preferred centerfire semiauto ccw if you are out of the game, then a 38sp snubbie revolver makes alot of sense. intuitive manual of arms, i.e. aim, pull the trigger, repeat. no limp-wrist concerns. your carry ammo can be softer, and your grips swapped, to accommodate you as well as weaker companions.
 
Whatever you decide, if you have to use it its gonna feel too small and the other 100% of the time it's going to be too big and heavy and lug you down.

If I knew something was gonna go down, I would be carrying a full size 1911 with 2 spare mags, a shotgun w/ 25rnd shell belt, a back up handgun, and a M2 50cal turret bolted down or even better just be somewhere else. Since I don't, I just pack a cheif special with 5ea +p loads in it and call it done.

In either case, I don't intend to get in a shoot out so don't think more than 1 or 2 shots would ever be needed for self defense when out and about. If a LEO on duty or soldier on a battle field then it's a different story. On my own place its different also. I don't live in gang land so that would make a difference in choice of CCW also.
 
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Derek Zeanah said:
Well, I bet you shoot the Guardian better than the Sig Officer. I bet the Match Elite, in 9mm is even easier to shoot (what's it, 45 ounces loaded
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Yes, yes, and probably.

I'd been contemplating sticking a 9moa Trijicon RMR I've got laying around on the Dan Wesson via one of the EGW dovetail mounts. I run optics on my competition.22's and I don't think it'll be a major transition. No batteries or switches to worry about.

I guess it comes down to me always looking for potential faults or failures and how to fix them.
 
Howland937 said:
The first thing was shooting my carry gun (Officer size SIG 1911 .45) in a competition and getting smoked. Granted, I was shooting my bone stock gun against a CZ Orange running an optic, Comp, etc...but felt like I should have been able to make it respectable. I didn't.
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Swap guns with your competition and run it again. Is it the Indian or the Arrow? i.e. The creme de la creme Pro shooters will kick most of THR membership butts with a High-Point. :what:

EDC will always be a series of trade-offs. I certainly cannot shoot my EDC as fast as my USPSA Limited gun. Course I am also not walking around with a 3lb gun and 85rds of 40SW on the daily..
 
Understandably ...

Larger guns take up a bit more space on the hip and often weigh more than smaller guns, but they're often easier to shoot when it comes to controllability.

Smaller and lighter guns are often harder to shoot as well, depending on the experience of the shooter, but they're easier when it comes to carry/concealment.

Caliber choice can change things, though.

So, pick something at either end of the spectrum, or in the middle, depending on your experience and preference.

How well can you put the first round accurately on-target under some moderately stressful and difficult conditions? Think about low light and difficult surfaces for movement. How about the next 2-3 rounds, meaning accurately and controllably? Why compare yourself to someone shooting a tweaked competition gun with a lesser recoiling caliber/load? If you're looking to make a comparison, why not make it of yourself, shooting your own different guns?

One of the old maxims in shooting incidents is that you may run out of time, before you run out of ammunition.

I've carried .357MAG, 9, .40 & .45 as issued calibers, and additionally some others when it came to approved calibers for personally-owned off-duty weapons. Some required more of me, granted. Instead of 'best', I sometimes looked at it from the 'well enough' under difficult conditions perspective. Suit yourself.

Never gave any thought to a family member perhaps having to take my weapon off my injured or dead body and use it. Particularly when my kids were teens. Suit yourself.

I started my LE career as a .357MAG, .44MAG and 1911/.45 aficionado. Using .38SPL and 9mm came along later. TDA guns (also called DA/SA) came along later. Plastic striker-fired guns came along later.

Nowadays, while I still occasionally carry some of my 9's, .40's & .45's as retirement CCW weapons, I mostly carry one of my several 5-shot J-frame snubs (.38SPL or .357MAG), or one of LCP's, if a J-frame won't fit well in a particular jeans pocket. Obviously, I'm not particularly over-concerned about capacity or caliber. ;)

I randomly choose one of my pistols and snub revolvers to do my retirement and LEOSA quals, but they all still see time for range sessions for range drills (I use my former agency's range). If I ever have to use one of them in a self defense incident, I'll run what I have with me that day/night.

Suit yourself, but hopefully for reasons that will withstand some difficult circumstances, and for which your confidence in handling and using it will prove justified. It's all any of us can really hope to achieve and expect.
 
jdc1244 said:
A self-defense incident will be at very close-range, where reliability and an effective SD cartridge are key, not long-distance accuracy.
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^^^This, for the most part. I cannot match the accuracy from my hunting revolvers @ 25 yards with any of my SD handguns. But at 7 yards I have a hard time missing a target the size of COM with any of them.
 
buck460XVR said:
I cannot match the accuracy from my hunting revolvers @ 25 yards with any of my SD handguns. But at 7 yards I have a hard time missing a target the size of COM with any of them.
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How many times can you hit it in one second--the time it would likely take for an attacker to close from seven yards to two yards?

...or more realistically, in half that time, since starting firing at seven yards might well not happen?
 
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