Carrying Non Lethal

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Slightly OT, but this thread raises a question about terminology. I've noticed laws that contain the phrase "less lethal weapons", and always assumed they were written some idiot legislator that didn't understand "less than lethal".

Are you telling me that "less lethal" is actually legitimate? Do these weapons make someone "less dead" than a lethal weapon? :D

Harpo
 
Are you telling me that "less lethal" is actually legitimate? Do these weapons make someone "less dead" than a lethal weapon?
If less lethal force is applied obviously the intended purpose is not to use lethal force. The "less" part of less lethal is that the chance of lethal results is much lower than those of say a firearm.

Less lethal means they are not designed or likely to result in them being lethal, but they can become lethal and should therefore be treated as such.

OC could interfere with someones breathing, especialy someone with asthma or other types of conditions. If excessively sprayed, or some is actualy inhaled in quantity and caused the lungs to inflame and swell death from breathing complications is a very real possibility. That possibility is exacerbated by methods used to subdue or contain a difficult fighting suspect, like holds and piling on top of them etc.

Tasers operate on electrical current, and the heart is paced with electrical current. Shocking the body with electrical current that passes through the body poses a risk, even if small of disrupting the proper operation of the heart. That could be fatal. Especialy someone using a pace maker etc, or with other heart complications.

Rubber bullets can often be lethal especialy at ranges closer than thier intended use. They are therefore less lethal. Even at proper ranges a hit in an eye or other vulnerable spot could result in penetration into vulnerable areas resulting in injuries beyond those intended, becoming potentialy fatal.

The intended strikes and locations of baton strikes are not designed to pose a lethal risk. However in a struggle it is very possible that a strike to a vulnerable area could happen resulting in lethal injuries. They could also develop internal bleeding etc.

The list goes on, and less lethal is the proper terminology as it acknowledges these risks and encourages discretion in thier use, unlike "non lethal" or "less than lethal" which sounds like a safe "go to" method requiring less discretion.
 
Thanks for the explanation, Zoogster. I guess it makes sense, but I'm used to the apparently outdated "LTL" terminology. I was having a hard time understanding how OC could kill someone, but they wouldn't be as dead as someone shot with a firearm.
 
Ohio has a statute that prohibits carry concealed or otherwise of "deadly weapons" which encompasses any impact weapon if I understand the meaning (I do not know what case law if any applies).

“Deadly weapon” means any instrument, device, or thing capable of inflicting death, and designed or specially adapted for use as a weapon, or possessed, carried, or used as a weapon. (ORC 2923.11)

(A) No person shall knowingly carry or have, concealed on the person’s person or concealed ready at hand, any of the following:

(1) A deadly weapon other than a handgun;(ORC 2923.12)

So we Ohioans are limited in what we can carry and be in compliance with the Ohio Revised Code. IANAL so I may be all wrong.
 
I've carried OC ever since a film in CCW class showed a CCW holder being messed with by 2 bums demanding money and spitting in his face. Maybe some are better than me and could walk away but from me they'd get a face full of OC before the second guy comes around and bashes me on the head. I'm too old and crippled up to run or fight so to me I have to do something and pepper foam and 911 would hopefully take care of the problem.
 
In this AIDS infested world, spitting in your face could now be construed as assault with a deadly weapon...
 
Harpo - I believe that persons have already been prosecuted for acts of this type. I don't know if sucessfully or not but that type of assault is a risk.
 
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Jeff's point that we all have to decide what's right for us is right on the money.

While Jeff may feel he doesn't need to carry all that stuff, not everyone is 6'2" and 250#. And, that's the point.

At 6' and 215 lbs, I'm not as big as Jeff. So, I carry a kubotan on my keyring, practice in martial skills, and carry a firearm. Never really thought of carrying OC.

If you think you need OC, a kubotan, an ASP baton, a firearm, a vest, leather gloves, and a pocketknife to feel safe, then more power to you.
 
I have no doubt each and every diverse opinion on this thread can be supported with anecdotal testimony. That being said, if my potential assailant is a single person I'm going to escalate very slowly from voice to soft open hand, hard open hand, knuckle strikes and frontal kicks while protecting my weapon. If that somehow doesn't work out I guess I'm in trouble and will attempt to inflict some immediate pain and then scoot away if possible. All the above goes out the window if I suspect the single assailant is armed with any type of weapon. Distance, pre cognition of the potential danger, immediate and aggressive action is what I strive for. Shooting in a one on one confrontation if the other party is unarmed is just very hard to justify unless you are a wheelchair bound diamond merchant.
 
I like options. I carry a very hefty pocket knife that can be used to strike closed, sometimes carry a kubotan (especially if I can't have a knife) and plan to carry a pistol in a few months. I can envision a scenario, like mpmarty mentioned, where I am not in MORTAL danger but cannot necessary escape and would like to have something more concentrated and powerful than my hand-to-hand abilities.

All this rhetoric--force continuum, "requirements," etc--is getting in the way of cognition and capitulation. Come on...there are some scenarios where you might need more options than just a firearm and your hands. Why not strive to be proficient in whatever you MIGHT need, instead of limiting yourself? Suppose you are assaulted physically and cannot fire for risk of shooting an innocent bystander? That's an entirely possible scenario in a crowded area, if you are in an up-close and personal confrontation.
 
Some jack@ss wants to fight and won't let you leave. You're packing. Fighting with this idiot would expose you to potential legal problems, could cause you to loose control of your weapon, and may even get your butt kicked, but probably won't kill you. You're not justified in using deadly force, and drawing your weapon would escalate the situation unnecessarily. OC could allow you time to retreat.
In just about every state, this would justify lethal force. Most only require that you be in fear of death or serious bodily injury. If someone insists on physically assaulting you, after being warned that you are armed, that you just want to leave and then blocking your retreat certainly passes the reasonable person test.

I've used pepper spray on a dog that was in the process of biting me once. It worked quite well at getting the dog to leave me alone. I think if I would have shot the dog with a gun, there would have been legal consequences, especially since the owner was standing not too far away and was watching as the dog was growling and biting me! I was also within city limits!
Again another scenario that calls for lethal force in most states. Most states laws do not require you to let someone beat you unconscious nor allow a dog or other animal to eat you before employing lethal force. Most only require a fear of death or serious bodily injury. They don't require that your assailant be armed. The real test is will a jury believe. But in many states (AZ for example), the burden is on the state to prove the shooting is not justified, not vice-versa.

The same law applies to private citizens. Indeed LEO's typically have a broader range of lawful use for deadly force. For a non-LEO, the rule is force must match force.
Actually the same law(s) does not apply. Nor do the same protections. Most states do not apply a force continuum to civilians. Most just require you be in fear of death of serious bodily injury. Most don't have a "like force" requirement.

If a private citizen is confronted with non-deadly force, he must not respond with deadly force.
Not in most states.

Look in your state codes on self defense and learn.
Already have, certified to teach them.

That means it both logicaly and legaly makes sense to have something besides a firearm, which cannot even be drawn or exposed in a hostile situation without making you guilty of felony assault if not warranted under your state law.
Not necessarily. Every confrontation is potentially a lethal one when you carry. LTL can cause you as much trouble as not. First, it uses up time and distance. If it fails to stop the assault (which it often does), you are now in a less advantageous position than you were before you used it. If may escalate a situation that may have ended with the presence or presentation of a firearm (contrary to what most people post, if you are in fear for your life, displaying your weapon is not a crime). It may even enrage the attacker.
It may also encourage someone to get involved in an altercation that they should avoid (that should be any).

That means if someone is acting threatening and advances and you place your hand on your firearm and others interprete that as an implied threat, you just assaulted them with that firearm, a felony to do in most states if its not legal to use it at that point, nevermind actualy pull it out.
Again, not true in most states. If you are in fear of death or serious bodily injury, putting your hand on your weapon or drawing your weapon is not a crime. If it was, just about everyone who you read about in the "Armed Citizen" woudl be in jail. What is is drawing it or displaying it unecessarily. Big difference.

In many places you will have a very tough time justifying use of your firearm against someone who is unarmed.
Not really, you only need to be in fear of death or serious injury.

LTL is no more a magic bullet than a firearm is. In fact, it can be a liability. A situation either calls for lethal force or it does not. If it doesn't, walk away.
 
+1 to Lurper!!

I do not carry oc nor plan to. I do not go to bars, it is illegal to carry intoxicated. My wife and I keep to ourselves, don't like big crowds, etc. At 5'8", 170 lbs, I am not a big person and I don't go looking for fights. If someone approaches that I do not trust, I will tell them we have nothing they want, leave us alone. If that does not stop them, I will warn them that I am armed. After that, they are responsible for what comes next, unless that person is very small and I cannot justify it. I do have a 2 year old daughter and my wife is 8 mo. pregnant, who cannot protect herself very well at this stage. I am their only protection, so I will not take any chances. Unless a dog is very small, any dog that attacks me is dead. I do not want to go through the series of shots that comes with rabies.
 
Y'know, I may be able to kill someone, even willing to kill someone, but that doesn't mean I want to kill someone. If OC will get the job done and everyone gets to live through the day, I'm all for it.

I just don't see any good reason not to have it. It's another defensive tool that could come in handy.

Why be less prepared than you could be? I'm not saying it's the right tool for every job. There are times you have to use lethal force, but there are also times that OC is all that's needed, whether your state would allow you to shoot or not.

Again another scenario that calls for lethal force in most states.

Allowing lethal force and calling for lethal force are totally different things. It's sad that there are people out there CCWing who don't understand that. They make the rest of us look trigger-happy. :(
 
I also carry an Asp Street Defender OC spray on my key ring. It's small, light and innocuous. I carry it everywhere, especially places I can't carry my firearm. I think carrying OC is a great way to A:show you have other means available to you other than deadly force if it ever comes up in court. And B: not every situation needs deadly force. I'm all for more options.
 
I have to agree with the dog examples for carrying mostly-non-lethal or not-too-often lethal options. Some mid-sized dog comes charging and barking at you. You may not fear for your life, but you don't want to be his chew toy either. There is no option to out run most dogs and I don't really want to kill every dog that comes at me barking, so pepper spray etc. seems like a nice alternative.
 
LTL is no more a magic bullet than a firearm is. In fact, it can be a liability. A situation either calls for lethal force or it does not. If it doesn't, walk away.

Can't the same be said if you're in a situation that calls for lethal force, walk away, if it's that easy?
 
Using a firearm on dogs

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I've used pepper spray on a dog that was in the process of biting me once. It worked quite well at getting the dog to leave me alone. I think if I would have shot the dog with a gun, there would have been legal consequences, especially since the owner was standing not too far away and was watching as the dog was growling and biting me! I was also within city limits!

Again another scenario that calls for lethal force in most states. Most states laws do not require you to let someone beat you unconscious nor allow a dog or other animal to eat you before employing lethal force. Most only require a fear of death or serious bodily injury. They don't require that your assailant be armed. The real test is will a jury believe. But in many states (AZ for example), the burden is on the state to prove the shooting is not justified, not vice-versa.

It happened when I was walking up to someone's door step to talk to someone at their own house. The rotweiler came running around the house snarling and bit me, then I sprayed it with my pepper spray like crazy. Then the rotweiler immediately stopped and looked quite stunned and a little disoriented, letting me get away. The owner who was watching the whole thing then came out and starting yelling at his dog and hit it as I was already leaving. My concern is: what if I would have shot the dog and he decided to call 911, how would that have sounded? He probably would have told 911 that someone walked up to his front door carrying a gun and shot his dog to death. If a neighbor would have been watching, all they would have seen was me walking up to the front door and shooting the dog and then walking away. Then it would be my word against the dog/home owner plus any neighbors.


Someone on THR posted a while back that he was cited for shooting a dog that chased him. He was cited for shooting within city limits. Didn't they also have a thread on THR a while ago if you would interpret someone shooting at your dog as a threat to you and if you would use lethal force against the dog shooter and many said yes? Another thing that I'm concerned about is the conviction of Harold Fish. He was being attacked by a homeless man's dogs and shot at them to scare them away. Then the homeless guy thought that Harold killed one of his dogs and shouted that he was going to kill him and charged him. Harold shot the guy to death as he was charging Harold. Then Harold was convicted of 2nd degree murder and sentenced to prison after he shot an unarmed homeless man. I just feel kind of worried about something like that happening to me if I only use my CCW.


Another thing that I'm worried about is what I saw at http://www.defendthyself.com/blog/?p=40

Don’t Try To Defend Yourself In Houston

A sad story about a man who was defending his family against his neighbors violent pit bulls. A man in Houston saw the pit bulls preventing his daughter and grand child from getting out of their car when they came to visit him. He was concerned when his grand daughter was playing in the front, with such wild dogs behind a flimsy neighbors fence.

I though they just passed the “Make My Day” law in Texas, where you can take down punks who are a danger to you. Guess the Cops in Houston have not heard about that yet.

Well, he tried to shoot the dogs with his pistol and missed (I suggest he needs some target practice also). Then he got smart and grabbed his shot gun, and tried to get the neighbors to tie up the dog(s). When it started after him (?), he let the pooch have it.

Shot guns don’t miss, though the HPD arrested the poor man and charged him with animal cruelty! He spend 5 days in jail until his family could round up the bail. This is not right and I thought in Texas of all places, they would just let the guy go. If you are pissed off about this, call the Houston Police Non Emergency number: (713) 884-3131. The City Attorney’s criminal law number is: 713.247.5474. Let them know what they are doing to this man stinks.
The original article and news video are at http://www.myfoxhouston.com/myfox/p...n=4&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=3.1.1
 
"I'm 6'2", 250."

But not everyone else is. OC is a reasonable option in the force continuum of the CCW civi and has a niche in that continuum. Clearly, there is a correct place and time for its use, the incorrect use of which could get you killed or arrested for assault, the correct use of which allowing you to not have to go to hands on contact or deadly force with a firearm.
 
I can see why people would want to carry less lethal tools in addition to CCW; it does give more options. However, I can also see how some people might feel that trying to run through some kind of force continuum when put in danger could result in either losing enough distance from the threat to deploy a firearm effectively, or being distracted or uncertain as to what option to employ.

I don't disagree with the "When all you've got is a hammer" saying. Not everything is a "nail". On the other hand, if you've got a belt full of tools, and you're trying to prepare for all kinds of eventualities, it might slow you down when you finally do see a nail... or maybe you end up with a nail that needs hitting, and you've got a screwdriver in hand. Okay, the analogy's wearing thin here, so I'll drop it.

Personally, I'm not able to CCW where I am. I have OC, but don't carry it... mostly because I don't trust it. I've been "trained" to use it, but I never have, and I just don't trust the stuff. My personal force continuum ranges from awareness, to verbal, then flight if at all possible. I'll use whatever "empty-hand" techniques I need to in order to leave ASAP, and I'm a big fat guy, so good luck stopping me when I'm in "lineman" mode. If it comes down to it, the only weapon I'm likely to have on me is a small knife.

If I could carry, I would probably still not carry OC, and running like a scared rabbit is still my preferred option if things get bad.

However, if I could, I would carry an ASP baton (whether or not I could CCW). I'd feel a lot better if I could carry one, as I trust the efficacy of a telescoping steel pipe far more than a chemical spray I have no "personal" experience with. Unfortunately, it's vastly more illegal for me to carry a baton than a firearm (felony vs. misdemeanor)
 
Nope, I won't carry non-lethal. Here's why:

Prosecutor: When you were "attacked", did you know for certain if the deceased was armed?

Me: No, but...

Prosecutor: So he may have been planning to "attack" you without the use of any deadly weapon?

Me: Possibly, but...

Prosecutor: The police report states that you were carrying pepper spray at the time of the "attack", is this correct?

Me: Yes.

Prosecutor: So why did you feel the need to use lethal force and fire a handgun at the deceased rather than attempt to use the non-lethal option you had available to you?

Me: The deceased was 6'5" and 375 pounds! He could have easily beat me to death!

Prosecutor: Yet police officers everyday are confronted by suspects far larger than they are and don't resort to deadly force. Your witness.

No way. Not giving the state that option.

-Mark
 
mrokern, the internet is not as anonymous as you may think. That very post could in fact be used against you in court for deciding not to have a less-lethal option available.

Besides, if you need to shoot someone, you need to shoot them.

Less lethal weapons carried by CCWers are for less than lethal threats.
 
The Use of Force Continuum does not apply to the armed citizen. We are not held to that standard.

The UoFC applies to officers with a duty to act. Go read one. Go read an actual department's policy one day. Pay special attention to the words like apprehend and custody in the policy.

Simply being without pepper spray, or some other specially designed less lethal tool on my person, doesn't mean I've decided to completely ignore less lethal options.

Lurper had a lot of really good advice here. Don't get wrapped up in a tool. At times too much is detrimental.
 
I've used OC to great affect.

Once when I was in a large Northwest city I was walking along the river with my lady friend. The area was relatively deserted a few joggers here and there, but basically empty. As we walked towards our destination I noticed off in the distance two youths walking towards us. As the distant closed between us I subtly watched them I became aware that the two of them were eyeballing us intently (which made me nervous).

When we converged, them on the right side of the path us on the left. The two of them turned 90 degrees said something indecipherable to us and started to beeline towards closing the 20 foot width of the path.

As soon as they turned, I told them to stop and as soon as they didn't stop I did two things: First, I hit them with a fog of Fox OC spray and second I pull my 1911 out (held down at my side) and announced I was a federal agent and that they were under arrest (I'm not a G-man, it just seemed like a good thing to do at the time).

They couldn't have run away any faster, well probably they would have if they didn't have a bunch of OC in their lungs, eyes and throat. After they vanished my friend and I quickly vacated the area.

Danger existed and it was obvious (based upon body language) that they were up to no good, but they never actually threatened us or menaced us.

Should I jerk my handgun out and point it at every unsavory fellow that approaches me? I don't think so.

What if I did nothing until they got right up to us and then one (or both) pulled knifes or just hitting/kicking at me? It'd be a bummer for sure.

OC definitely puts an end to punks that are fishing for an easy score, I think that very few criminals are hardcore thugs out for blood and that OC can be a very persuasive show of force. Make it clear that your not an easy mark.

My anecdotal example aside, I can imagine plenty of other scenarios where OC could simply stop a social situation from exploding to lethal levels.

/Btw, I'm 8 feet tall, nearly 400 pounds and I am a golden glove champion, but I still wouldn't want to fist fight two street kids with a couple of pocket knifes
 
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