Cartridge loads 36 cal pieta

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Dana Stanley

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Hi All first post here. Scouring the net and my manuals for data for the right Cowboy load for my 51 Navy Pieta 36 cal with 38 conversion cyl.. I am using hollow base wad cutters in .360 in a 38 spl, brass the Bullet weight is 128gr from a mold by MP molds. I want to use as light a load as I can to start, and am looking to be able to use Pyrodex, or Smokless (Unique) . Looking for 700 fps as a starting point. So far I believe 15grains Pyrodex (110% compression) or 3 grains Unique is in the ball park.
So I have questions:
1- Since it is hollow base I do not think a over powder card is appropriate?
2- What will the differences be in pressure between the Pyrodex and Smokless at the same velocity?
3- Where can I find data on Pyrodex loads that list chamber pressure?
4- What says you on my load weights? 15 & 3
Thanks for any help!
This is the mold ! HG#50 38 & 357 HB Wadcutter, 2 Cavity Mold ~ MP-molds
Dana
 
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Dana Stanley said:
1- Since it is hollow base I do not think a over powder card is appropriate?
2- What will the differences be in pressure between the Pyrodex and Smokless at the same velocity?
3- Where can I find data on Pyrodex loads that list chamber pressure?
4- What says you on my load weights? 15 & 3
Click to expand...

1. I would. In the case of your bullet, there might be an air pocket; this, as you well know, is dangerous. Black powder and it's substitutes must be compressed. See here.
2. More than you'd think, but unfortunately I can't tell you.
3. This is as close as I think you can get: Pyrodex Data
4. Your Pyrodex weight is about right; I might start a touch lower (12 grs) and work up, again making sure the powder is compressed. The Unique data can be found here.

Mac
 
MacAR said:
1. I would. In the case of your bullet, there might be an air pocket; this, as you well know, is dangerous. Black powder and it's substitutes must be compressed. See here.
2. More than you'd think, but unfortunately I can't tell you.
3. This is as close as I think you can get: Pyrodex Data
4. Your Pyrodex weight is about right; I might start a touch lower (12 grs) and work up, again making sure the powder is compressed. The Unique data can be found here.

Mac
Click to expand...
So as far as an air pocket I am thinking an over powder card would only insure an air pocket, and compressing it is going to fill the void like a mini ball is filled when you mash it down with the rod! That is my conundrum though. What is the safer route! I have a choice in voids with this mold, shallow rounded like a mini ball, or deeper pointed like a hollow point. I am hoping someone who has a 36 to 38 cyl conversion will have some insight! I am thinking most of the pressure in in the cylinder, and they are rated for smokeless with cowboy loads!

One thing is that the Pyrodex data above, doesn't apply as it's for cap n ball. I'm using a cartridge. They do recommend a wad for conical bullets but not sure if they are referring to mini balls. This bullet needs to expand from .360 to .375, and that's what it was designed to do.
 
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The only work I did with a conversion cylinder in a 1851 reproduction was with smokeless powder and hollow base wadcutters in the futile hope that they would expand into the rifling of the C&B barrel. Sometimes they did and sometimes they didn't. So I had the barrel lined to .358" and it now shoots fine with any .38 S&W.
Yes, .38 S&W, not Colt, not Special. It is the "Legal Defender" of the 1970s specifically designed to let you arm yourself in a repressive jurisdiction with no risk of getting +P in a copy of an old gun.

Maybe somebody would care to comment on the rifle musket practice of filling the hollow base of the Minnie ball with grease.
 
arcticap said:
FWIW, Blackhorn 209 is a black powder substitute that the company provides cartridge reloading data with pressure and velocity for two .38 special loads.
https://www.blackhorn209.com/load-data/
However Blackhorn 209 can't be found for sale virtually anywhere at this time.

And the Hodgdon reloading data center provides similar data for Trail Boss cowboy action type powder.
https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center
Click to expand...
Thanks, The thing is I have a lot of Unique and Pyrodex! Blackhorn did have the pressure like you said. That helps me. 13,000 appx at 900fps .
 
From what I understand I can use either in a cartrage! P if I don't have as much space to fill and RS if I have more space. The wad cutters I am using from what I have read want to be just sticking out and 1/8" or so. I am hoping to use rs for this, and save my p for pistol cap n ball.
 
Ya know...

Duelist1954 has a video on his YT channel of loading some heel-based bullets in the 38LC over black. If memory serves me it's this one. And, again if I'm not mistaken, he talks about using the HBWC along with the heeled bullets, in conversion revolvers. It's worth a watch, as are many of his other videos.

Mac
 
Hello Dana,

Good luck with your Hollow Base bullets, from what I've read they don't shoot very well.
Personally if I was to load this bullet, I'd try filling the Hollow Base with some type of lube, and make sure I had some compression on the powder charge.
Then you need to worry about contamination of the powder.
A heeled bullet would be much easier.

AntiqueSledMan.
 
I’d be inclined to think better performance would be had with the smokeless. The hollow base is suppose to expand into the grooves it has a better chance of doing that with the pressure curve generated by the smokeless than the one push “explosive” force generated by the black powder.
 
whughett said:
I’d be inclined to think better performance would be had with the smokeless. The hollow base is suppose to expand into the grooves it has a better chance of doing that with the pressure curve generated by the smokeless than the one push “explosive” force generated by the black powder.
Click to expand...
I agree, and I would likely use smokeless most of the time, but want the option of the black powder. Plus as these are made for BP I thought I do need to keep the pressure as low as I can. After comparing cowboy loads of BP and smokeless it doesn't look like the pressure spike is all that different. I suppose the smokeless may draw out the pressure a bit longer. Not sure about that!
 
An important bit of info from the Howell Arms site on their conversion cylinders; The maximum pressure should be 12,000 PSI or 850 fps.
 
I don't know if the SASS maximum smokeless requirement is still the same but their handbook used to allow 1000 FPS . --->>> https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4414105&postcount=15

IIMO there's a margin for error built into firearms products whether C&B or smokeless.
Even the BH 209 factory load for .38 Special at 833 FPS in post #6 above exceeds that pressure.
The C&B manuals also list maximum loads to make the liability lawyers happy.
 
arcticap said:
I don't know if the SASS maximum smokeless requirement is still the same but their handbook used to allow 1000 FPS . --->>> https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4414105&postcount=15

IIMO there's a margin for error built into firearms products whether C&B or smokeless.
Even the BH 209 factory load for .38 Special at 833 FPS in post #6 above exceeds that pressure.
The C&B manuals also list maximum loads to make the liability lawyers happy.
Click to expand...

12,000 psi is for the Howell conversion cylinder and back plate for pieta, 1851 navy. To allow me to use cartridge's in a 36cal cap n ball revolver. I'm going to try 3.5 grains of unique, with cci primers. The bullets I cast are weighing in at 129 gr (Hollow base wad cutters) As recommended by Howell. I cant find a recipe for HBWC but this works for a WC and with the slop in the barrel this will be plenty safe to start. I will chronograph and change up or down to get 700fps within the range of Cowboy Action Shooting for pistol.
I agree that max listed is likely on the safe side. A good example is the tow rating of a ford 150 in the US is much less than in the UK! Same truck different country and liability!
 
With regard to the hollow base, Muzzle Blasts magazine ran an article a few months back wherein the authors attempted to blow up rifles by seating balls off the powder. They didn't have much success.

I personally wouldn't worry about the cavity of a hollow base bullet. I do know from experience, though, that using card wads with them can cause some fairly amusing flyers, so would drop that idea completely.
 
Dana Stanley said:
I agree that max listed is likely on the safe side. A good example is the tow rating of a ford 150 in the US is much less than in the UK! Same truck different country and liability!
Click to expand...

I realize that wadcutters don't need that much velocity, and that more pressure can cause more wear & tear.
It's the Kirst conversion cylinders that clearly state that it's okay to shoot cowboy ammo under 1000 FPS.
As a matter of fact, their wording seems to indicate that cowboy ammo is defined as having a velocity under 1000 FPS.
Here's what their FAQ's page states: --->>> https://www.kirstkonverter.com/kirst-pdfs/FAQ.pdf

Q. What ammo is required?
A. Black powder or smokeless, lead bullets only, under 1000 FPS (as required of Cowboy Loads)

Q. Can I shoot smokeless powder?
A. Yes. Stay under 1000 FPS (Cowboy Loads)

Then Kirst also states that copper bullets can be used.

Q. Can I shoot jacketed bullets?
A. Yes, but, Italian barrels are soft and may wear excessively.
 
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So I got to try out the Pietta with the conversion cyl, using the hollow base wad cutters. First reloading with the wad cutters went well, loaded 5cc unique 38 special brass. The wad cutter weighs 129 grains. The work great no keyholing, no leading. The pistol works great with the conversion cyl. 1" group 20 yards unsupported! That was my wife's 5 shots she is a dead eye! I also just picked up a new Henry Big Boy in 357 Mag. We went from the gun shop to the range, and shot it and the Pietta for the first time! That went well too. I had loaded some 150 grain round nose 7cc unique in 38 special for the rifle.

I did just get today some 357 brass and loaded some 125 grain flat nose with 7cc unique for it. More appropriate for a lever action Though I really don't think I'm gonna get chain reaction with lead round nose bullets! They were more rounded than pointed too! The powder I'm using must be 40 years old, it was my dads. One pound un opened! He died in 86 and I don't think he had reloaded for 5 years before that! every round went off without a hitch.
The manual for the Henry says if you shoot 38 it should be 150 grain and the oal as close to a 357 as possible. I only had one round I had to giggle to get it to chamber, but I think I was leaning the gun to the side to keep from chasing the spent brass. I kept it straight up and down after that and no problem.

Loving the 38/357, economical, pleasant to shoot, we have a Smith & Wesson in 38 too. That is a good pistol too, accurate! I have 2 molds for 38, and plan on getting one for flat nose maybe 150 grain. The wad cutter mold will do pointed, or rounded hollow base, and solid I think it is 140 gr as a solid base. I need one more single action pistol so I can do Cowboy Action Shooting. I may have to wait until prices come down. That Pietta just went from 275.00 to over 300.00. Midway says 245.00 but not in stock. I think I want a regular 6 shooter though, not BP conversion. 5.5" barrel, Maybe a Ruger Black Hawk conversion 38/9mm!
 
Hello Dana,

Going with a Factory Conversion, the barrel will be .357".
No need for heeled or hollow based projectiles.
If shooting a carbine along side, it would make a lot of sense.
Less chance of mixing cartridges between the two.

Shoot straight & have fun, AntiqueSledMan.
 
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