Proposal for HB conical bullet for 36 cal. revolver

[Onty]

Proposing hollow base (HB) conical bullet for 36 cal revolver. It has a rebated dia bottom for easier reloading.



Blue ring is just proposal for an O-ring that could be inserted to create a better seal and prevent a chain fire from the front of cylinder.

Bullet weight in hollow base configuration will be 140 grains, with solid base will be about 163 grains.

There is manufacturer of Cramer style molds that could make a mold with additional pins, so you just replace them, and you can cast solid base bullets. However, before making any further step, I would like to see first what would be your response.

Please let me know what do you think about this design, thanks.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Ditch the O ring.

 

[rodwha]

You will appreciate a longer base to insert into the chambers. I created bullets with short ones like yours and they can tip a bit when seating in one of my pistols. My next design will have a longer base.

 

[arcticap]

You will appreciate a longer base to insert into the chambers. I created bullets with short ones like yours and they can tip a bit when seating in one of my pistols. My next design will have a longer base.

I agree,
I would put in a much longer rebated portion, which can be compensated for by shortening the nose and adding another driving band.
If the whole bottom section were rebated then the O-ring could serve more of a purpose.
I hope the O-ring wouldn't get displaced by being blasted into the forcing cone of the barrel, or when loading.
It could be moved forward to another driving band, and would probably end up being okay to use.

 

[Dave T]

Not trying to be a (expletive deleted) but I have to ask why? Round balls and original conical designs have been around for 170 years. With them you experience what it was like to shoot the guns of that era, the way they were shot back then. For me at least, that's what black powder is all about.

YMMV,
Dave

 

[rodwha]

Not trying to be a (expletive deleted) but I have to ask why? Round balls and original conical designs have been around for 170 years. With them you experience what it was like to shoot the guns of that era, the way they were shot back then. For me at least, that's what black powder is all about.

YMMV,
Dave

Well, for myself these are hunting tools and a ball or original pointy conicals just aren’t nearly as effective as a wide meplat. The original conicals, being pointy, tended to penetrate well but leaves a smaller than caliber size hole as the slower speed and design allows the flesh to stretch thereby creating a smaller permanent wound channel. A ball surprisingly penetrates well but still only creates a caliber size hole. A wide meplat even at low velocities creates a much larger permanent hole and still outpenetrates a ball, and it deals with bones better.

 

[arcticap]

Not trying to be a (expletive deleted) but I have to ask why? Round balls and original conical designs have been around for 170 years. With them you experience what it was like to shoot the guns of that era, the way they were shot back then. For me at least, that's what black powder is all about.

If Onty is still in Europe then perhaps the gun and load can also be used for self-defense which isn't always a consideration here in the USA.
IIRC Onty mentioned that he was in Bosnia.

 

[Onty]

You will appreciate a longer base to insert into the chambers. I created bullets with short ones like yours and they can tip a bit when seating in one of my pistols. My next design will have a longer base.

I agree,
I would put in a much longer rebated portion, which can be compensated for by shortening the nose and adding another driving band.
If the whole bottom section were rebated then the O-ring could serve more of a purpose.
I hope the O-ring wouldn't get displaced by being blasted into the forcing cone of the barrel, or when loading.
It could be moved forward to another driving band, and would probably end up being okay to use.

Here is Big Lube for Ruger Old Army from Dick Dastardly http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=09d6fdda-c105-4c87-b269-68ebfdaba982 :



Make note that bullet has 2 rebated dias (quote);

"The dual rebate makes loading in C&B guns very convenient. The lube/sized bullet sits straight and proud on the charged chamber for easy seating. The smaller rebate works well with Italian clone and other small size 44 cal C&B guns while the larger rebate works well with Ruger Old Armies."

I scaled a picture and looks like that each rebated dia is about .080":

Here is my opinion about long rebated dia; I don't think that even longer leading shank will help much. It must be at least half twice long or longer (.160 or more) to be just partially defective. The problem is that bullet rammer has cavity for round ball. This is fine with round ball because if cylinder bore is not aligned properly with rammer, round ball will align cylinder with rammer. Conical bullet is different story; it is long, and if cylinder bore is not aligned with rammer, bullet will tip. Solution might be to have bullet rammer with flat point. If I modify mine, I will put brass conical tip so steel portion of rammer cannot touch cylinder and damage it.

Nevertheless, here is bullet with .100" rebated dia shank:



If the bullet is solid, I would hesitate to put such rebated dia shank. However, with hollow base, bottom end will expand, fill the cylinder and bullet should have a nice long contact with chamber wall.

 

[Onty]

If Onty is still in Europe then perhaps the gun and load can also be used for self-defense which isn't always a consideration here in the USA.
IIRC Onty mentioned that he was in Bosnia.

I am in Croatia, but using handgun for self-defense in Europe is very rare. Yeah, we do have ordinary handguns, generally as hunters (for coup de grace), shooters, collectors, and security folks. In all countries (as far as I know) license is needed to have a handgun. However, in some countries muzzle loading firearms could be purchased without license, but in most cases firearm still needs to be registered with police.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

I have designed conicals for my .36 and i dont design them to be longer than .500 inches because you have a very limited chamber space and every grain counts. My designs are between 136-140 grains. All have flat wide meplats as Mr.rodwha mentioned...the performance is way better as far knock down power and wound channel size. Use an energetic powder such as Old Eynsford, Swiss, or 777..it will give your 20-25 grains (as that is all that will fit behind a .500 long bullet) more power than standard black powder such as Goex. The difference is pretty significant. Stay away from o-rings, BUT you can get a very great seal behind the bullet if you use a thin card (3/8inch widr cereal box cardboard disk) and a thin lube disc. So the order to load is powder , hard lube disk, cereal box cardboard disk, then bullet. This will ensure you have a tight seal behind the bullet and prevent any gas cutting. I will post a picture of my designs. Another good design is Kaido .36 cal 140 grain conical. My designs are based off the two common colt and remington bullet mold that were included with most gun purchases in the mid to late 1800's. They came with a round ball and pointed bullet and some came with a lube groove and some without lube groove. I "improved" it by adding a flat meplat. They are made to be used with and without attaching a paper cartridge. Your design is very good...but i would Use a thin card and lube disk allow the gasses to remain sealed behind the bullet so no need for a hollow base or longer bullet that would take up your very limited chamber space that could be used for powder instead. Heres a link to my designs with specs on them..
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...tridge-works-and-remington-36-conical.865212/

 

[Onty]

I have designed conicals for my .36 and i dont design them to be longer than .500 inches because you have a very limited chamber space and every grain counts. My designs are between 136-140 grains. All have flat wide meplats as Mr.rodwha mentioned...the performance is way better as far knock down power and wound channel size. Use an energetic powder such as Old Eynsford, Swiss, or 777..it will give your 20-25 grains (as that is all that will fit behind a .500 long bullet) more power than standard black powder such as Goex. The difference is pretty significant. Stay away from o-rings, BUT you can get a very great seal behind the bullet if you use a thin card (3/8inch widr cereal box cardboard disk) and a thin lube disc. So the order to load is powder , hard lube disk, cereal box cardboard disk, then bullet. This will ensure you have a tight seal behind the bullet and prevent any gas cutting. I will post a picture of my designs. Another good design is Kaido .36 cal 140 grain conical. My designs are based off the two common colt and remington bullet mold that were included with most gun purchases in the mid to late 1800's. They came with a round ball and pointed bullet and some came with a lube groove and some without lube groove. I "improved" it by adding a flat meplat. They are made to be used with and without attaching a paper cartridge. Your design is very good...but i would Use a thin card and lube disk allow the gasses to remain sealed behind the bullet so no need for a hollow base or longer bullet that would take up your very limited chamber space that could be used for powder instead. Heres a link to my designs with specs on them..
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...tridge-works-and-remington-36-conical.865212/

Marvelous thread Kid! And thanks for advice!

Regarding O-ring, I made lube groove to fit ring with 1 mm dia cross section. Testing will show is any benefit using it.

As a matter of fact, if rebated dia shank is .100" long, bullet will stick out .500". Despite, I still might have issue because of the flat point of the bullet. If that is the case, I might just open loading nest on the frame.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Marvelous thread Kid! And thanks for advice!

Regarding O-ring, I made lube groove to fit ring with 1 mm dia cross section. Testing will show is any benefit using it.

As a matter of fact, if rebated dia shank is .100" long, bullet will stick out .500". Despite, I still might have issue because of the flat point of the bullet. If that is the case, I might just open loading nest on the frame.

Fala mr.onty!

 

[DocRock]

Ditch the O ring groove for a larger lube groove. In fact, I would ditch the whole design in favor of the Big Lube design listed above.

 

[gtrgy888]

Be careful with lube touching 777! It gets soaked into the powder and keeps it from igniting, especially if you keep your gun loaded a month or longer. I like your design because it combines the flat broad profile of the compressed round ball with the mass of the conical. If you’re gonna carry the gun for serious use, modern innovations are reasonable. I can’t imagine any cowboys of the West refusing to load more energetic powder and better conicals if they were available.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

I use a really stiff lube of 1:3- 1:4 mutton tallow to beeswax in the form lf thin lube disks...this keeps it from contaminating powder but i also separate the powder and lube using a wax paper disk. Its how i build my paper cartridges for long term storage without lube contamination

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Would melted O-ring be a good thing in the bore, chamber, barrel/cylinder gap, and/or any other place fouling would go?

 

[woodnbow]

Would melted O-ring be a good thing in the bore, chamber, barrel/cylinder gap, and/or any other place fouling would go?

What could possibly go wrong?

 

[woodnbow]

Here is Big Lube for Ruger Old Army from Dick Dastardly http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=09d6fdda-c105-4c87-b269-68ebfdaba982 :

View attachment 977665

Make note that bullet has 2 rebated dias (quote);

"The dual rebate makes loading in C&B guns very convenient. The lube/sized bullet sits straight and proud on the charged chamber for easy seating. The smaller rebate works well with Italian clone and other small size 44 cal C&B guns while the larger rebate works well with Ruger Old Armies."

I scaled a picture and looks like that each rebated dia is about .080":

Here is my opinion about long rebated dia; I don't think that even longer leading shank will help much. It must be at least half twice long or longer (.160 or more) to be just partially defective. The problem is that bullet rammer has cavity for round ball. This is fine with round ball because if cylinder bore is not aligned properly with rammer, round ball will align cylinder with rammer. Conical bullet is different story; it is long, and if cylinder bore is not aligned with rammer, bullet will tip. Solution might be to have bullet rammer with flat point. If I modify mine, I will put brass conical tip so steel portion of rammer cannot touch cylinder and damage it.

Nevertheless, here is bullet with .100" rebated dia shank:

View attachment 977666

If the bullet is solid, I would hesitate to put such rebated dia shank. However, with hollow base, bottom end will expand, fill the cylinder and bullet should have a nice long contact with chamber wall.

Even without the hollow base the Bullet will obturate into the rifling if the chambers are sized appropriately. For every action there’s an equal and opposite reaction. (Or something like that)

 

[arcticap]

Would melted O-ring be a good thing in the bore, chamber, barrel/cylinder gap, and/or any other place fouling would go?

Anything is possible, but O-rings are used to seal the blowback from entering the chambers of inlines and last a long time.
Inlines are loaded with a lot more powder than a .36 caliber chamber, maybe 4-6 times more powder.
There's also different O-ring materials.

 

[gtrgy888]

Anything is possible, but O-rings are used to seal the blowback from entering the chambers of inlines and last a long time.
Inlines are loaded with a lot more powder than a .36 caliber chamber, maybe 4-6 times more powder.
There's also different O-ring materials.

A slightly oversized O-ring of lead would be a possible middle ground. Like a compression strip that would get swaged down into a flat band or shaved off for a tight seal.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Anything is possible, but O-rings are used to seal the blowback from entering the chambers of inlines and last a long time.
Inlines are loaded with a lot more powder than a .36 caliber chamber, maybe 4-6 times more powder.
There's also different O-ring materials.

That occurred to me also, plus the time from ignition until the bullet leaves the barrel is very....short! However, on the bullet it would be traveling at the same time as being roasted. And, as mentioned, I'm sure some O-rings are made of some pretty heat-resistant materials. I think that in an inline, there's quite a bit of thread between the O-ring and the chamber. It's not actually in the chamber as it would be in a revolver cylinder. It might be subjected to more pressure, but not so much heat and flame ? But, only one way to find out!

 

[arcticap]

It might be subjected to more pressure, but not so much heat and flame ? But, only one way to find out!

That's true that it's placed on the other side of the flash hole from the powder charge.
But the blowback can be high enough to bulge a 209 primer and to cause gas cutting of the flash hole.
Even a cotton patch barely gets damaged when fired from a ML. so I wouldn't expect an O-ring to suffer much.
It's only there to help seal the bullet before being fired anyway.
I guess that Onty can worry about it if he ends up using them.

 

[Onty]

Ditch the O ring groove for a larger lube groove. In fact, I would ditch the whole design in favor of the Big Lube design listed above.

I was thinking should I go with bigger lube groove you mentioned, or 2, even 3, smaller ones. Considering that some of the most accurate BP rifle bullets are multi-groove, I decided to go with 2 smaller ones for this bullet.

 

[Onty]

A slightly oversized O-ring of lead would be a possible middle ground. Like a compression strip that would get swaged down into a flat band or shaved off for a tight seal.

Suppose to look like this when pressed into cylinder:

 

[rodwha]

I was thinking should I go with bigger lube groove you mentioned, or 2, even 3, smaller ones. Considering that some of the most accurate BP rifle bullets are multi-groove, I decided to go with 2 smaller ones for this bullet.

My bullet design has a smaller more shallow lube groove and I have shot up to about 10 cylinders full without fouling issues. But I also use Olde Eynsford (and Triple 7) powder which is said to be very much cleaner than most other BPs. This is one of my designs:



One of the many modifications will be to slightly enlarge the lube groove. I feel it’s just barely enough to handle 35 grns of 3F (weighs 38 grns) through the 7.5” barrel. The NMA has the shorter 5.5” barrel and it likes 30 grns (weighs 33). I don’t like the idea of just barely enough lube. But I don’t believe a huge lube groove is necessary at all, though I’ve never used a dirty fouling powder so I guess I can’t really say it isn’t. Maybe as a carbine bullet.