Cautious Optimism - Democrats Starting To Get It?

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The core philosophy of the Democratic Party is communitarianism. Self-defense is anathema to communitarianism. ‘Pro-gun’ Democrats are either too stupid to understand their party’s touchstones…or lying.

Uh, TT, maybe you ought to read some Foucault before you go around calling people stupid or liars .

The person who kills in self defense kills in defense of a central good, LIFE. In other word, the good at stake here is common ground between the Liberal and the Communitarian.
 
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please open your mind to the possibility that there's more to the political world than the BS spewed by Democrats and Republicans looking for votes from the lowest common denominator among voters

I'm completely open to it. That's my point. People running around calling Democrats (even the ones who fully support the RKBA) Socialist is just too much parroting what some hack with with a microphone and a tee time tells them to say. And to dismiss the common ground because of that hack is ignorant and offensive.
 
I thought you guys might find this interesting.

I stole this off of DU, I was quite surprised by the numbers.:what:

DUpic.gif

It seems like there is a war going on inside the democratic party.

I think we, as pro RKBA people need to support the pro RKBA people on the other side of the political line.

Lets make some allies guys.
 
People running around calling Democrats (even the ones who fully support the RKBA) Socialist is just too much parroting what some hack with with a microphone and a tee time tells them to say.

Now right there, you sound like a serious bigot. You think that you know how and why people hold an opinion, when you have no idea.

I, for example, most certainly see some of the crop of influential Democrats in DC as socialists. That would include the President and the Speaker of the House, among others. Obviously, none of them think exactly alike. Neither do any Republican individuals, or any others. People are individuals, and each brain operates independently (unless of course you buy into some New Age magical thinking, but it doesn't sound like you would :) ).

My use of the word "socialist" is not as a random pejorative, and it is most certainly not based on what some guy on the radio says. I have a pretty decent education in Western thought, and for that matter I had and have relatives who are high up in European government - as Social Democrats. I actually do understand what socialism is, and its relationship to communitarianism.

Furthermore, when you say "Life", you really mean "Tribe." I also have a pretty decent education in Evolution...
 
We need to stop being afraid to admit victory.

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1) A recent Supreme Court decision upholding the right to keep and bear arms.

2) Congress votes to limit the District of Columbia's attempts to roll back that decision.

3) State legislatures across the country institute concealed carry and other laws expaning gun rights.

We need to stop looking for nefarious motives behind the good things that happen and focus our efforts on expanding our rights in places they are still under attack.

That's my two cents.

I tend to disagree. The victory comes when the left stops trying to take the guns.
 
The notion that anyone over at the DU owns a gun is a scary thought in an of itself. That blog is a cesspool of deranged hatred.
 
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The notion that anyone over at the DU owns a gun is a scary thought in an of itself.

WTH does that mean?

Gun owners of all type are our allies, or at least they should be.

If we want the RKBA movement to grow, we need to throw aside our resentment of those who don't agree with us on other issues.

Statements like the one you made do nothing except promote the widening gap between red and blue gun owners. Not a good thing, IMHO.
 
It's called reelection fear. The demos have only ONE motivator, reelection! And, they have known for years, it doesn't pay, as far as reelection to be on the bad side of gun legislation anymore. I personally don't know one Democrat who either doesn't have a gun, or is in favor of yet more gun laws. And in the current climate, even the dumba$$ Democrat politicos are finally (it looks like) "getting it"!
 
The demos have only ONE motivator, reelection!

They learned one thing from the GOP, it's to have that fear.

Too many Republicans forgot to be afraid of their constituents over the past 5 years. Now they're out of office.
 
My use of the word "socialist" is not as a random pejorative, and it is most certainly not based on what some guy on the radio says.

Good. I'm glad it's not a derogatory comment in your case. And as someone who pays attention to political rhetoric, you have to admit the word does OFTEN get used as a pejorative.

Here's the thing, the post I read was specifically referencing the "new breed of Democrats" within the context of "getting it where guns are concerned." Which lumps those/us pro-gun Democrats in with this whole Socialist meme.

And being one of these "new breed of Democrats" who "gets it" where guns are concerned, and has owned my own business for 13 years, I don't truck with being labeled a Socialist.

If pro-RKBA Conservatives think it's a good idea to go around impugning the credibility of Democrats who support RKBA by calling them "Socialist" in the pejorative, then how can they expect to better the cause?

People who might be on the fence on the issue are likely to think "Well, if what the conservative guy says, that Democrats are Socialists is true, then this Pro-RKBA Democrat must be a Socialist too. So he must be wrong, bad for America, etc.."


Reducing the credibility of ones allies in general, when they support you on an issue, really only serves to undercut your cause. If I were looking on this debate I'd think the pro-RKBA side sounds dubious; they can't even agree to accept allies on their own issue. "Shooting themselves in the foot." I believe they call it.
 
Wesson Smith

The notion that anyone over at the DU owns a gun is a scary thought in an of itself.

Is this sentiment what passes for "pro-RKBA" and "pro-2a" around here? Everyone should have the right except the people at DU - we're afraid of THEM having guns?

nice work.
 
While the infighting over blaming Dems or Repubs for the ills of our country is fun, the realities are they both suck. This thread wasn't about branding Democrats for all of the views they hold. Unfortunately, the massive majority of Democratic Politicians, as well as the massive majority of Democrats in most urban areas, both desire and work for massive gun control and limitations of the 2nd amendment. There are Republicans that pursue this course as well, they just are an insignificant minority.

I probably should have changed the title to say, Cautious Optimism - Are Democratic Politicians Starting To Get It?

As an independent conservative, (NOT REPUBLICAN), there is nothing short of standing before God, Allah, Jehovah, Budha, or however else you describe the Almighty One, that will help me understand where the Liberal Progressive Democratic Ideals come from. They make no sense from a logical, reasoned, common sense point of view. The thought that someone is not responsible for THEIR decisions, goes counter to everything I have ever learned, experienced, or believed.

Unless a person is handicapped either mentally or physically, they determine what they accomplish, what they obtain, and how they live their lives. For those that can't do that for themselves, their family, friends, church or charitable organization, and finally and more importantly lastly, their government and society step in.

I will never understand and am yet to have a liberal explain to me, why I should HAVE to pay for the education, healthcare, mortgage, food, insurance, job benefits, clothes, and any other item you care to list, for someone that has made unwise choices. It isn't right, it isn't moral in my opinion, all it does is enable those that make poor decisions, to continue that course of action. Then you have a never ending cycle of poverty, ignorance, and dependence on the government and the rest of us that provide for them.

Republicans aren't any better because they have basically done the same thing Dem's are now doing, just with smaller amounts of money going to different groups of people. As I mentioned, both parties stink and if you are loyal to either one, I would really ask you, what has either party done in the last 30 years that has ACTUALLY benefitted us as a country?

This is all semantics, because it has nothing to do with gun rights, other than the idea that once again it is the government that should provide self defense for all of us, instead of individually, we each be responsible for our safety. For those Democratic Liberals that are here on THR, I'm glad you are here, quit playing the victim when it comes to gun rights. None of us are attacking you personally, rather we are attacking what your party and elected leaders stand for, based on their comments, actions, and history.

It is your party that has primarily led, currently leads, and will lead the assault on gun rights in this country. I respect liberals that proudly own guns and work to expand the rights of the rest of us to own guns. If you are among those, thank you. If you aren't, I ask you humbly, please get to work on the leadership of your party, they probably won't listen to you, but they for sure won't listen to anyone else.
 
One other thing I don't understand. I think I am yet to read a single post from someone here on THR, that claims to be Liberal, Progressive, or a Democrat, where they simply say:

Yes, it is our party leaders that go after gun rights. It isn't right, they should stop, and it is OUR party's responsibility, including MY personal responsibility to ensure that happens.

Instead, I usually read posts that try to rationalize the behavior, blame conservatives/republicans for why guns get a bad name, share how victimized they are by just posting on forums that are primarily conservative due to the nature of the forum, or justify voting these people in office because of larger and more important issues.

Maybe that is the change that I would be more optimistic to see. Who knows?
 
Yes, it is our party leaders that go after gun rights. It isn't right, they should stop, and it is OUR party's responsibility, including MY personal responsibility to ensure that happens.

I haven't seen that either.

It would be nice to see that here.

Camslam, if you have time, go over to DU and check out the gun forum. If you do, you WILL see that kind of talk and attitude, it does in fact exist. And there is a battle taking place over that exact issue.

So that's one thing to note, they are challenging their leaders, we just wont see much of it here, and for obvious reasons, partisan resentment clouds peoples ability to admit wrong.

But I reiterate, is IS happening, so let's support them over HERE as much as possible.
 
But I reiterate, is IS happening, so let's support them over HERE as much as possible.

Whatever efforts are being made by whoever is doing it, thank you. I do what I can to support anybody on my side of the battle. Truthfully, only 1 of my friends that is Liberal owns a gun, so I just don't run in the gun toting Liberal crowd, therefore, I don't see a lot of the efforts that are made.

I do keep working on my other Liberal friends, and I have taken 2 of them shooting in the last month. Baby steps, but they both like letting go with my AK. :D

Let me say again, if you are a Liberal, Progressive, Democrat, and you are working to further gun rights in this country.

THANK YOU! We need more people like you. (Now just quit coming after the money I make). :evil:
 
Somewhere, there's an anti-gun forum. It has 5 self-described Republicans saying, "I hate guns! Don't blame me! Look at these 5 RINOs in the house! They hate guns too! Don't blame us! Harry Reid likes guns..it's his fault!"

Camslam-you have single-handedly redeemed this entire thread with your last two posts (89 & 90). I was checking in, rolling my eyes, and waiting for the lock, but your two posts have said exactly how I feel.

God Bless the pro-gun Democrats. Let's hope they prosper and convince their friends. They in fact have the opportunity to provide the most gains in RKBA. Me talking about guns with my friends does nothing, they already like guns. Those guys might actually change some minds.

The best thing that can happen in DC is gridlock. When Congress and the President are at odds, no one can screw things up that bad. When either party gets total control, we get a disaster, usually manifested by out of control spending.

I'm still shocked this thread hasn't garnered a padlock.
 
Gossamer: Uh, TT, maybe you ought to read some Foucault before you go around calling people stupid or liars .

The person who kills in self defense kills in defense of a central good, LIFE. In other word, the good at stake here is common ground between the Liberal and the Communitarian.

Communitarianism rejects self-reliance and seeks to encourage dependence on government- the Democratic agenda reflects this. Take a look at the 2008 Democratic Platform…notice that the section on firearms doesn’t mention self-defense even though that is the primary reason for gun ownership in the US? That's because the guys who wrote the platform WEREN’T IDIOTS. You can’t logically believe that citizens are only fit to be wards of the State and yet are also competent enough to be allowed firearms for self-defense.

You can logically believe that citizens are incompetent bigots who can’t be trusted with guns and also be too afraid of the political consequences to act on that belief- that’s what you are seeing from Democratic leaders today.
 
For what its worth, I am one of those pro-gun Democrats. I will again thank camslam for skillfully redeeming this thread in two posts.

That said, I recently graduate from Emory, which is a VERY liberal school. My friends and acquaintances split about 70/30 D/R. Surprisingly, other then one acquaintance who had a pathological phobia of weapons (and I am talking about full-blown phobia in the clinical sense of the term), all supported the RKBA. Some certainly said that they would not own guns for one or another reason, but they still supported this right. Even my current significant other, who would best be described as a far-left flower child is perfectly OK and supporting of RKBA.

So, from the left side, the younger generation that is coming up in general is very RKBA friendly. What I think we're seeing right now in the political RKBA arena is the younger generation of voters coming into their own, and beginning to exert their political weight.

I was 1 year old when they banned the manufacture of MGs, 9, when the AWB came into effect and 19 when it expired. To me, seems like a interesting correlation. Who knows, maybe in a few years the 1986 ban might even get rolled back.
 
Awww, much palaver.

Yes, there are many Democrats who are pro-gun.... There are more Republicans who are.

The more urban either are... the less likely they are pro-gun.

These seem to be the way the demographics work.

Now, I am a conservative in most respects and libertarian on social issues. Someone mentioned they were OK with higher taxes for things he wants. I would disagree. The theft of money from one person by the threat of imprisonment is immoral on its face. If YOU want to give more money for social programs, go for it, but leave me out as I don't want to.

See the difference? I don't want to steal other people's wealth for some social re-engineering. I see the Obamination that is happening now and I just cringe as the massive destruction of wealth and the massive spending that is going on. I think once the Bamster gets his socialist agenda pounded down our throats, they will go after the guns... so we don't kill all of them.
 
I'm glad to see some good discussion here, and also want to compliment camslam for his deft comments.

I don't hang at DU, but I am well known as a long-time dKos "Trusted User". When I got started there, it seemed like I was part of a very small minority of liberal gun nuts. Now, after almost 5 years, when the topic comes up, I know that at least half of the comments posted will be pro-RKBA. Here's some examples in response to the stupid crap Holder said last week:

Here we go again; Dems giving up the advantage to go after guns

Holder: Mexicans are killing each other, so we need to disarm Americans **UPDATE x3**

The Scary Black Gun Ban

Note - each of those posts got *hundreds* of comments, with lots of thrashing from hard-core dems to preserve our RKBA rights. (You'll see comments from me in there, under the same handle as I use here.) This has now become typical - a grass roots activism at one of the biggest and most influential democratic sites out there. We *are* working to change the minds of the leaders of the party, or to get them out and get more supportive pols in. Sure, there are still those who think that gun control is a good idea, but we are making real progress.

Anyone who is pro-RKBA is my ally. Making support for the 2nd A a bi-partisan position, rather than tying it to one party, just seems to be smart politics. Demonizing liberals/progressives/Democrats who are gun owners seems to be contrary to those goals.

7
 
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-V- wrote:
So, from the left side, the younger generation that is coming up in general is very RKBA friendly. What I think we're seeing right now in the political RKBA arena is the younger generation of voters coming into their own, and beginning to exert their political weight.

and Shadan7 wrote:
Anyone who is pro-RKBA is my ally. Making support for the 2nd A a bi-partisan position, rather than tying it to one party, just seems to be smart politics.

Thanks for your efforts gentlemen. This is the kind of effort we need. I don't want to say some efforts are worth more than others, but the reality is the only way for Democratic policitians to quit going after our guns is for Democrats like V and Shadan, Senators Tester and Bachus from Montana, Webb from Virginia and whoever else in Congress defends the 2nd amendment that is part of the Democratic party, to literally change the goals of that party from within, to align with protecting the 2nd amendment, rather than destroying it.

I always say I don't discriminate, I don't care if you are male, female, young or old, white, black, brown, Indian, Asian, Latin, or Swedish, Gay, Straight, fat, skinny, ugly, gorgeous, or something else; if you are dedicated to preserving the right to keep and bear arms, saddle up partner, I'm with you.

Please keep up the good work people.
 
I don't want to say some efforts are worth more than others, but the reality is the only way for Democratic policitians to quit going after our guns is... ...to literally change the goals of that party from within, to align with protecting the 2nd amendment, rather than destroying it.

Thanks, camslam, for understanding this. It has been my motivation for the last several years of fighting that fight, and one I know is shared by a growing number of other gunnies on the left. There still is a long ways to go - the insane positions of the old-line Dems are still there, though no longer getting the sort of support they used to. It may be a generational thing, but I think that the momentum is on our side.

And I'll say this to my fellow pro-RKBA supporters who are conservative: help us by finding a lefty in your family or at work or on your block, and take them shooting. Ignorance of guns is the biggest hurdle we face - as people get more comfortable with guns, they fear them less. And who knows, you might discover that the liberal has some good ideas of their own. :evil:

Cheers,

7
 
And who knows, you might discover that the liberal has some good ideas of their own.

Let's not get crazy! :neener:

Sidenote: Before their offices closed today, I made calls to both Senators from Montana and left messages thanking them for their efforts on behalf of protecting the 2nd amendment rights of we citizens. Any feedback helps. If you all have a minute, call next week and voice your support.

Senator John Tester: 202-224-2644

Senator Max Baucus: 202-224-2651
 
Neither the rank and file nor the leadership of the Democratic Party want to confiscate our guns to leave us helpless and easy to subdue. The reason they want to ban guns is that they really believe that it will make us all safer. They are naive, fearful and wrong. But they are not evil.

And you know, a lot of the suburban SUV driving soccer moms and dads who vote for the GOP agree with them. Unfortunately, if a referendum were held on an Assault Weapons Ban tomorrow, it would probably pass. We're not going to change all those minds by name calling or further fear mongering. We just have to admit that some of those people will never come over to our side. Others can be won over with an invitation to the range. (I've seen it happen several times.) Luckily, most of the rest don't vote very often.

The best thing we can do is stay on The High Road.
 
that’s what you are seeing from Democratic leaders today.

Correction, TT; that is what YOU are seeing from Democratic leaders today. And calling the rest of us Democrats who support gun rights "stupid or liars" . . . well, keep it up and we'll see how it works out for you.

Communitarianism rejects self-reliance and seeks to encourage dependence on government

Your understanding of communitarianism is limited, and honestly inflamatory. It makes your statement sound ignorant and dangerous. There's a lot of reading you might want to do on the subject before you continue down a path of limited understanding about an entire ideology to a few pithy comments on an internet website.

Communitarianism doesn't place an emphasis on reliance on the government - because communitarians don't consider the government part of the community, except maybe a the VERY local level. Communitarianism places a reliance on one another. Other PEOPLE to help us out.

In fact, communitarianism, when you really understand it, would CONDONE our actions to defend our selves and our neighbors not only against criminals but also against the State.

Communitarian mutuality is also advanced when neighbours attend to one another if one is discharged from hospital, ever earlier, as is increasingly the practice. Communitarians are often asked how folks could do more for one another, or for stricken members of their families, when both parents often work outside the home. While there is a need for more self-reliance, communitarian culture stresses the need for reciprocity; for members of a community to help one another, not as an act of charity, but as an act of mutuality - one for all and all for one.​

http://www.gwu.edu/~ccps/etzioni/B290.html

"Eco-communitarianism values participatory democracy, self-reliance, local responsibility, a higher degree of regional autonomy."
http://www.greeninformation.org/Communitarianism vs socialism.htm
 
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