Cautious Optimism - Democrats Starting To Get It?

[TT]

gossamer: …well, keep it up and we'll see how it works out for you.

Because if I’m not nice to you you’ll what? Vote for Democrats instead of…um, voting for Democrats?

 

[rbernie]

Neither the rank and file nor the leadership of the Democratic Party want to confiscate our guns to leave us helpless and easy to subdue. The reason they want to ban guns is that they really believe that it will make us all safer. They are naive, fearful and wrong. But they are not evil.

And you know, a lot of the suburban SUV driving soccer moms and dads who vote for the GOP agree with them. Unfortunately, if a referendum were held on an Assault Weapons Ban tomorrow, it would probably pass. We're not going to change all those minds by name calling or further fear mongering. We just have to admit that some of those people will never come over to our side. Others can be won over with an invitation to the range. (I've seen it happen several times.) Luckily, most of the rest don't vote very often.

The best thing we can do is stay on The High Road.

I concur with this perspective - great contribution.

There are statists on both sides of the aisle who really *do* want to control the population for motives that are less than pure, but they are likely in the minority when compared to those who are anti-RKBA because they naively believe it'll make the world a better place.


ETA - the issue that I have with most folk who are anti-RKBA is not their party affiliation, but that they want to hard to believe that guns are evil that they will literally STOP THINKING AND LISTENING when presented with any contradictory behavior. They want so much to BELIEVE that they stop THINKING.

To them, a conclusion is a place to stop thinking and no additional data points are considered once they're arrived at their conclusion.

 

[winston smith]

I am shocked...Shocked! To find out that people have such strong feelings about owning guns!

I hereby fine each of you (and me) $10. Please mail said fine to the NRA, GOA or the non-tax deductible gun group of your choice by monday.

Thank you for your support.

 

[James T Thomas]

down in the swamp

A leopard cannot change it's spots; argument with Brady Bunch types is "futile," -for the most part, and those of Democratic persuasion have so much vested in their own ego, that when you hear that change is occuring, they are either being forced to concede certain points, in order to save their own exalted positions, or it is some strategy of deception, at which they are
skilled as snakes.

What do you think is occurring in current politics with so called Republicans
standing up against the Stimulus Package legislation? Take a look at the Senator from my state. Arlen Spector. Or John McCain!

And then, consider if this sort of person that "serves" in D.C. has seen the light and is turning around their viewpoint on life.

When I was a boy there was a political and cynical cartoon that ran in the Sunday paper titled "Pogo." I would love it if it somehow would be revived.

 

[David904]

The 2A has been the linchpin right that has empowered the free people of this country to peacefully have a change of government every 4-8 years.

There have been administrations I have admired and those I have abhorred. But they have all been duly elected; and I firmly believe that the 2nd amendment has been the guarantor that this has been the case.

It is important that folks of all over the political spectrum in this nation be free to enjoy this right as civil disagreement and competition is important to the health of our political system.

 

[yokel]

There are statists on both sides of the aisle who really *do* want to control the population for motives that are less than pure, but they are likely in the minority when compared to those who are anti-RKBA because they naively believe it'll make the world a better place.

Well, this is not only a naïve but also a dangerous attitude because governments have a penchant to accrue power at the expense of the liberties of individual citizens.

What we learn from history is that folks do not learn its lessons! Despite what we have learned about the deleterious effects of draconian gun control in other countries, particularly during the previous bloody century, our foes continue to beat the drums calling for more gun control.

Whatever their professed or unacknowledged aims and designs, the upshot remains that domestic disarmament is not only dangerous to one's liberties but also counterproductive in achieving safety.

 

[jferrell54]

I must say I agree with Yokel. He sums it up very well.

 

[shdwfx]

I want to offer thanks to THR moderators for not locking this conversation.

 

[Prince Yamato]

argument with Brady Bunch types is "futile," -for the most part, and those of Democratic persuasion

Paul Helmke is actually a Republican. Don't forget that Republicans also supported the AWB (in addition to the Democrats). Sometimes I question if the opposition to the AWB was genuine or politically convenient. Whichever the case, we now have a situation where the Republicans understand that they get zero votes if they are anti-gun. Democrats are starting to get it. The trick is to keep pressing them on the issue. They will eventually give in if they see it as an unwinnable battle.

 

[augustino]

Democrats and Gun Control

This is a touchy topic. I think that they are leaving gun control as a states rights issue for the most part. VP Biden has and has always owned firearms so I don't know what impact that might have on things. Also I heard one post say they are waging war on capitalism. Don't necessarilly agree with that because the real war on capitalism began with the pres over the last 8 years. But that's another whole can o worms I rather not delve into at this time. Hope this doesn't offend anyone because it is NOT my intent to offend anyone, simply to take part in a positive conversation.
Thanks everyone for the input!

 

[TexasRifleman]

Unfortunatly I don't see it as any "getting it", merely a redirecting of the attack.

Watch for:

Ammo import restrictions
Ammo taxes
Reloading component taxes
More strict ammo sale restrictions longer term(ending online sales, ATF forms to purchase,etc)

This is where it will come from next in my opinion.

Why ban guns? If there's no ammo you might as well sell machine guns in Wal Mart right? They make good door stoppers.

 

[jerkface11]

Why ban the guns they're trying to ban the lead they shoot now.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

35 out of the 58 democratic senators voted against giving D.C. their second amendment rights. No, they don't get it.

Biden has and has always owned firearms so I don't know what impact that might have on things.

Unfortunantly, he's still anti-firearm

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Remember that new Senator from NY? Who was supposed to be pro-gun, but then voted against giving rights to D.C.? Forgive me, but I'm not sure I trust Democrats when they claim they support the second amendment.

Well, I have wondered if fellow gun owners would actually begin to trust Democrats not to go after their gun rights should BHO do as he stated on the campaign trail and not pursue gun control for the next four years.

He promised to pass another AWB.

Ever hear of Vermont? Why don't you look up our Brady Campaign score? Then look at our polling results from the 2008 election.

Sounds like a good idea. Those scores are not as good as Oklahoma, Kentucky, and a bunch of other red states. In addition, Vermont is a notable exception, most of the Blue states have terrible records on gun rights.

Your statement is asinine on so many levels it's barely worth responding to. Assuming you are a Republican, I have to say that your party has been the far worse abuser of civil liberties,

Really? Can you say fairness doctrine?

Evidently some Democrats do get it:

Unfortunantly, most of them in Washington don't.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

who feel as strongly as you do about a different issue, and if forced to make a choice between your liberties and theirs,

So, in other words, they are anti-gun?

Edit; I'm not aurguing for anything here, just trying to show people that just because you value certain liberties more than others(And are willing to vote that way, even with the possibility of loss of OTHER liberties (probably ones you don't care about)), doesn't make you an enemy of freedom. It just makes you a selfish, normal, every-day American.

There is one party that doesn't have any more restrictions on liberty I can think of than the other party. The other party has an AWB in it's party platform.

conservative, racist brother in law who owns over a dozen guns and hundreds of knives.

So all conservatives are racist now? Tell it to Steele.

So when I come here and read a post that's positive, about the REALITY that the Democratic party is starting to get it where guns are concerned I say "hey, maybe some of these guys are catching on that we're not all a bunch of anti-gun, fearful people who want to lock up your guns.

It's good that we have pro-gun Democrats, but the problem is that most of them are anti-gun, both in Washington and the voters.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I thought you guys might find this interesting.

I stole this off of DU, I was quite surprised by the numbers.

That's fine, but firearm owners are over represented on the internet. In real life, according to a non-partisan, perhaps even slightly liberal polling source, about 68% of Democrats support stricter gun laws. About 51% of independants and 52% of republicans oppose stricter gun laws

Gun owners of all type are our allies, or at least they should be.

+1

If pro-RKBA Conservatives think it's a good idea to go around impugning the credibility of Democrats who support RKBA by calling them "Socialist"

That's probably more directed at anti-gun, extreme left types, like the speaker of the house.

all supported the RKBA.

But did they vote pro-gun? Did they vote anti-gun? If they voted anti-gun, them "supporting it" doesn't matter.

I'm a complete progressive

But you apparently have a conservative view on the second amendment, kind of like I have a liberal view on the death penalty.

 

[TT]

Gossamer: In fact, communitarianism, when you really understand it, would CONDONE our actions to defend our selves and our neighbors not only against criminals but also against the State.

When you follow the link you gave for the quote you used to support this assertion http://www.gwu.edu/~ccps/etzioni/B290.html,
a little looking around produces:
http://www.gwu.edu/~ccps/platformtext.html

There is little sense in gun registration. What we need to significantly enhance public safety is domestic disarmament of the kind that exists in practically all democracies. The National Rifle Association suggestion that criminals not guns kill people, ignores the fact that thousands are killed each year, many of them children, from accidental discharge of guns, and that people--whether criminal, insane, or temporarily carried away by impulse--kill and are much more likely to do so when armed than when disarmed.

Seems like these guys haven‘t gotten your message, better go set them straight. Make sure you mention Foucault, then they’ll take you more seriously.


Not really interested in discussing the Green Party as they are not a significant player in the US political scene, but since you brought it up-
Your link:
http://www.greeninformation.org/PLATFORMPAGE1.htm#CRIMINALJUSTICE
To:
http://www.greeninformation.org/TABLECONTENTS.htm
To:
http://www.greeninformation.org/PLATFORMPAGE1.htm
To:
http://www.greeninformation.org/PLATFORMPAGE1.htm#CRIMINALJUSTICE

11. We support the 'Brady Bill' and thoughtful, carefully considered GUN CONTROL.

Some commentary from Green icon Nader:
http://www.votenader.org/issues/justice-system/

Each year, more than 23 million Americans become victims of crime. The Nader Campaign recognizes that crime and violence are caused by complex factors and that there is no quick fix. The many factors include: increasing poverty, unemployment, and the growing rich-poor divide; from the failure to invest and nurture children, from family breakups, to the incessant marketing of violence and corporate pornography; our inability to provide treatment for those addicted to drugs and alcohol; the proliferation of guns [emphasis mine]; the rise in intolerance based on race, ethnicity, gender, religion, and sexual preference… all these contribute to crime.

gossamer: It makes your statement sound ignorant and dangerous.

Ignorance would be looking at the Democratic agenda and not seeing it is about diminishing the individual and increasing the role of government in daily life. Dangerous would be counting on people who are communitarian by nature to help advance the very libertarian cause of firearms ownership for self-defense.

 

[Dirt]

gossamer, you were pretty low on the belt w/ TT in your chastisement. I would be very curious to hear you explain the response.

gossamer, oh gossamer?

Dirt

 

[pmeisel]

35 out of the 58 democratic senators voted against giving D.C. their second amendment rights.

Jimbo -- so you just write off the other 23? I'd think we should build on that. I want to see an 80/20 majority, we won't get that from one party.

 

[rbernie]

One hundred and twenty posts into this thread, and I think that we've said all that can be said for now.

Time to write our state and federal CongressCritters and let them know how we feel on the subject, and wait-n-see what comes down the pike.