Roccobro
Member
Link please. I'm not a gold member so my search-fu sucks there.
Justin
Justin
Cavalry Arms Raid +150 Days
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Cesiumsponge
Member
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=699768&page=48
I'm not a pay member either. I use use the google phrase site:www.ar15.com and enter my search query and all matches from that website will turn up as a result.
"site:www.ar15.com Cavalry Arms Press Release"
I'm not a pay member either. I use use the google phrase site:www.ar15.com and enter my search query and all matches from that website will turn up as a result.
"site:www.ar15.com Cavalry Arms Press Release"
Flyboy
Member
Cavalry Arms threw in the towel today. Thank God for the brave agents of the ATF, selflessly throwing their lives on the line to protect us from AR lowers manufactured at the wrong address! What would we do without these unsung heros?
Three cheers for the ATF!
Three cheers for the ATF!
sv51macross
Member
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2009
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- 380
(comment O/T, deleted)
Kimber45acp
member
The only question is how long before most of us, even in the gun community forget about this. For the last year I sat in amazement at how the abuse of Cav arms had been forgotten and how NRA wasn't helping at all.
A call will be placed tomorrow to my utterly worthless U.S. Senator and my co-worthless senator. Cavalry should rename themselves Goldman Sachs if they want any help from congress I guess.
A lack of publicity, and lack of updates from the NRA, the largest gun group, the "10,000 pound gorilla," certainly didn't help. O how things would probably now look different if NRA had put Cav arms on the front cover of "1st Freedom." They were more concerned with playing "me too" on the McDonald case.
A call will be placed tomorrow to my utterly worthless U.S. Senator and my co-worthless senator. Cavalry should rename themselves Goldman Sachs if they want any help from congress I guess.
A lack of publicity, and lack of updates from the NRA, the largest gun group, the "10,000 pound gorilla," certainly didn't help. O how things would probably now look different if NRA had put Cav arms on the front cover of "1st Freedom." They were more concerned with playing "me too" on the McDonald case.
Roccobro
Member
No words can express my dissapointment...
Justinr
Justinr
FROGO207
Member
Win some loose some.:banghead: NEVER FORGET
The tide is turning, even some in Washington are getting sick of all the crap and getting out of a sinking ship.
The tide is turning, even some in Washington are getting sick of all the crap and getting out of a sinking ship.
well this is rediculous. Not unexpected of course from big .gov.
My impression of Cav arms has always been, cheap low priced CDNN type stuff.
So this story reads to me " ATF raids Hi-Point-like accessory company ".
Is it safe to assume more .... how shall I say ... reputable companies actually take the time and money to hire lawyers to get the paperwork straightened out right the first time?
My impression of Cav arms has always been, cheap low priced CDNN type stuff.
So this story reads to me " ATF raids Hi-Point-like accessory company ".
Is it safe to assume more .... how shall I say ... reputable companies actually take the time and money to hire lawyers to get the paperwork straightened out right the first time?
w_houle
Member
So apparently we have been reduced to hand wringing and praying that our benevolent gov't allows us the privilege of guns...
auschip
Member
Actually, CavArms is known for high quality AR lowers. Might you be thinking of CAA?
They have never been charged with anything.
SSN Vet
Member
well ... according to Thomas Jefferson...
“A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have.”
Perhaps it's time for folks to stop crying for someone else to solve all of their problems and to stop sucking off the teets of the federal and state governments.
This is just the beginning folks....
anything and everything you think you rightfully own is up for grabs...
all they have to do is accuse you of being a terrorist with "assault weapons" and an "ammo cache" and they can do anything to you that they want.
“A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have.”
Perhaps it's time for folks to stop crying for someone else to solve all of their problems and to stop sucking off the teets of the federal and state governments.
This is just the beginning folks....
anything and everything you think you rightfully own is up for grabs...
all they have to do is accuse you of being a terrorist with "assault weapons" and an "ammo cache" and they can do anything to you that they want.
w_houle
Member
Ah, yes: The elephant sanding in the middle of the room. So now that we've passed the notion of being citizens with rights to subjects with privilege... now what?
Hatterasguy
Member
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2010
- Messages
- 1,604
I wonder what the whole story was? The NRA must have stayed out of this for a reason.
What did the search warrant say?
What did the search warrant say?
DMK
Member
Very sad. This is shameful. While I can understand CavArms not wanting to devote everything to fighting the government, I was hoping that justice would prevail.
Civil forfeiture is a euphemism for grand theft by the government, pure and simple.
http://www.isil.org/resources/lit/looting-of-america.html
Civil forfeiture is a euphemism for grand theft by the government, pure and simple.
http://www.isil.org/resources/lit/looting-of-america.html
essayons21
Member
I hope someone with some FOIA request experience will get on this ASAP. Since it should no longer be an active investigation it should be available.
I know most of us would like to know what really happened.
I know most of us would like to know what really happened.
627PCFan
Member
I think the NRA stayed out of it because they dont want to be tied directly with a "business" or manufacturer. This was about a company, not an individual, or rights.
Mr.510
Member
Ok, if I understand what happened with CavArms it goes something like this:
They were injection molding AR receivers off-site at another business and adding a serial number tag on-site in clear violation of Federal Law. Supposedly they were the only business in history that got an 'OK' from the BATF to manufacture off-site but the document that proved this has never been made public. They got caught and their illegally-produced receivers were confiscated. By some stroke-of-luck (or deal that was not made public) they were not charged and the receivers were destroyed. What exactly is the problem and why would the NRA have gotten involved? The NRA makes a habit of *not* helping people and/or businesses that commit Federal crimes and I, for one, am glad that my money isn't spent helping these criminals.
From what I've read on the Web the Feds had a slam-dunk case against them and the owner could easily be doing many years for illegally manufacturing firearms. My guess is that we'll never hear what 'really happened' because that would be a violation of a deal that was struck. He was allowed to keep his license and continue manufacturing legally, on-site. I think there's only one way that could have happened: Deal.
When you go into business as a firearms manufacturer you accept that you have to follow every requirement to the letter or you will go down. If you screw up ALL of your assets can be seized and your personal freedom lost. This is a risk that all firearms manufacturers knowingly take and most are smart enough to operate FAR from any gray areas.
They broke the law and (in my opinion) paid a very small price for it.
I know that just about everyone here hates the BATFE on principle but it sounds to me like they got it right in this case. CavArms was not manufacturing off-site for some malicious purpose, they couldn't afford their own injection molding equipment. The Feds took all the guns that were on site, searched their computers and records to see if they were hiding anything serious, and let them continue production legally on-site after giving them back all but the illegal guns and parts.
What's the problem again?
They were injection molding AR receivers off-site at another business and adding a serial number tag on-site in clear violation of Federal Law. Supposedly they were the only business in history that got an 'OK' from the BATF to manufacture off-site but the document that proved this has never been made public. They got caught and their illegally-produced receivers were confiscated. By some stroke-of-luck (or deal that was not made public) they were not charged and the receivers were destroyed. What exactly is the problem and why would the NRA have gotten involved? The NRA makes a habit of *not* helping people and/or businesses that commit Federal crimes and I, for one, am glad that my money isn't spent helping these criminals.
From what I've read on the Web the Feds had a slam-dunk case against them and the owner could easily be doing many years for illegally manufacturing firearms. My guess is that we'll never hear what 'really happened' because that would be a violation of a deal that was struck. He was allowed to keep his license and continue manufacturing legally, on-site. I think there's only one way that could have happened: Deal.
When you go into business as a firearms manufacturer you accept that you have to follow every requirement to the letter or you will go down. If you screw up ALL of your assets can be seized and your personal freedom lost. This is a risk that all firearms manufacturers knowingly take and most are smart enough to operate FAR from any gray areas.
They broke the law and (in my opinion) paid a very small price for it.
I know that just about everyone here hates the BATFE on principle but it sounds to me like they got it right in this case. CavArms was not manufacturing off-site for some malicious purpose, they couldn't afford their own injection molding equipment. The Feds took all the guns that were on site, searched their computers and records to see if they were hiding anything serious, and let them continue production legally on-site after giving them back all but the illegal guns and parts.
What's the problem again?
essayons21
Member
Do you have a single cite to back up anything you just said?
I've been following this story for the better part of the past 700+ days, and have yet to see any definitive information as to what actually happened, just rampant internet rumor-mongering.
Its this complete lack of transparency on the the part of the BATFE that bothers me more than anything. And its not an isolated incident, the BATFE has a long history of operating in the shadows.
I've been following this story for the better part of the past 700+ days, and have yet to see any definitive information as to what actually happened, just rampant internet rumor-mongering.
Its this complete lack of transparency on the the part of the BATFE that bothers me more than anything. And its not an isolated incident, the BATFE has a long history of operating in the shadows.
Mr.510
Member
Not really, but some of it's here:
http://www.atf.gov/
http://cavalryarms.com/
http://www.saysuncle.com/archives/2008/04/16/cav-arms-update/
Like you (and everybody else), I've read a whole bunch of snippets and opinions all over the gun boards. Most of it is probably untrue, including the stuff on CavArms own website. My personal guess is that, since they were allowed to resume production on-site, a deal was struck and none of us will ever know what really happened. I'm just sick of the rampant BATFE/NRA bashing by people that (like me) don't have a single provable fact and probably never will. I tried to sum-up what I've read in what I consider to be the 'more respectable' parts of the web (like THR) in an attempt to boil it down to approximately what CavArms may have done wrong and how the problem was apparently resolved behind closed doors.
You'll note that I started my post with this:
I may not understand anything that happened and I doubt any of us will ever know for sure.
On a side note, a shop that I recently left after 18.5 years looked into manufacturing guns. (We were asked to quote on the manufacture of AR 5.7 uppers.) After meeting with the BATFE we decided it wasn't worth the financial risk given how much you can lose due to things like clerical errors. If you're in the gun business you cannot make ANY mistakes.
http://www.atf.gov/
http://cavalryarms.com/
http://www.saysuncle.com/archives/2008/04/16/cav-arms-update/
Like you (and everybody else), I've read a whole bunch of snippets and opinions all over the gun boards. Most of it is probably untrue, including the stuff on CavArms own website. My personal guess is that, since they were allowed to resume production on-site, a deal was struck and none of us will ever know what really happened. I'm just sick of the rampant BATFE/NRA bashing by people that (like me) don't have a single provable fact and probably never will. I tried to sum-up what I've read in what I consider to be the 'more respectable' parts of the web (like THR) in an attempt to boil it down to approximately what CavArms may have done wrong and how the problem was apparently resolved behind closed doors.
You'll note that I started my post with this:
I may not understand anything that happened and I doubt any of us will ever know for sure.
On a side note, a shop that I recently left after 18.5 years looked into manufacturing guns. (We were asked to quote on the manufacture of AR 5.7 uppers.) After meeting with the BATFE we decided it wasn't worth the financial risk given how much you can lose due to things like clerical errors. If you're in the gun business you cannot make ANY mistakes.
Mr.510: Having followed the story since the beginning, my summation and understanding is identical to yours. Did the BATF come down on them like thugs (armed raid), vs. a simple phone call to clear up an administrative issue? Yes. Were they violating the letter of the law? Apparently so. Do I see a major issue of concern to me as a gun owner? Not at all.
ClickClickD'oh
Member
Close, but not quite. Cav Arms were having another company injection mold receiver halves, then were joining them into an assembled receiver on site at Cav Arms where they put on the serial numbers. Cav Arms, being rational human beings assumed that the "firearm" was produced when the two halves were joined into what the ATF defines as the firearm part of an AR-15, the lower reciever. ATF, through their constructive intent BS decided that merely having two halves of a lower receiver (even though they would only be right halves or left halves since Cav Arms only had them produce one side at a time) meant that you had a full firearm.
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