CC at Home- Paperwork?

[Craig_AR]

Many THR members carry while at home, some in OC holsters and some concealed, especially in pockets. Here's a thought- when you CC around the house, do you make sure to have your CHP/CCP/CCL/CWP and ID (e.g. drivers license) also with you at all times?
I ask this because of the what-if: What if you have reason to go outside, on the porch, in the yard, or even step off the property, and the fact that you are carrying becomes an issue?

That what-if was prompted by the posting about "knock & talk" on VCDL, quoted below.
If a LEO comes to the door, and you choose not to invite the LEO inside, but instead choose to converse on the porch or in the yard, what happens if the LEO becomes aware of your CC handgun?
Obviously, if you are OC, then you should not even step out of your door unless you are in a a state and locality with OC-friendly laws.

Craig

Link to
http://www.vcdl.org/static/index.html
and then about 1/3 down the page click on the link to
07/29/08 - VCDL Update 7/29/08 - Part 1
===
6. Beware of "knock & talk" tactic by police to gain entry
**************************************************

This "Knock and Talk" tactic is exactly what came up yesterday at the
'Heller' Victory Party. Knock and Talk can be incredibly dangerous in
the 4th (mid-Atlantic) and 5th (TX, LA, & MS) circuits, that allow
this. It's too easy for LEOs to convert a K&T into an Exigent
Circumstance warrantless search & seizure. Or consent exception. Or
'plain view' exception. Or community caretaker exception. And so on.
Gun owners are especially vulnerable. A VCDL member asked Senator
Cuccinelli what he thought about all this; he didn't really have an
answer.

See U.S. v. Jones, 239 F.3d 716 (5th Cir. 2001):
http://tinyurl.com/5td85e

[SNIP]
Federal courts have recognized the "knock and talk" strategy as a
reasonable investigative tool when officers seek to gain an occupant's =

consent to search or when officers reasonably suspect criminal
activity. This investigative tactic is not inherently unreasonable.

--
=======

 

[TallPine]

I never carry my wallet or DL unless I am going to town. And I don't need a permit to OCW, or even CCW as long as I am outside city limits.

I've never had "cops" on my place unless I called them. And I was carrying concealed both times.

 

[Nickotym]

Unless you live in an apartment or a restrictive city, you should be able to open carry anywhere on your own property without hassles.

 

[psyopspec]

If a LEO comes to the door, and you choose not to invite the LEO inside, but instead choose to converse on the porch or in the yard, what happens if the LEO becomes aware of your CC handgun?

You're suggesting that it is illegal for a property owner to carry on their own real estate, concealed or otherwise. Is this the case in VA?

 

[Jeff White]

Even here in Illinois you can carry on your own property. There is no need to worry about stepping onto the porch or walking around the yard.

Do you guys in Virginia worry that the police may lure you out onto the porch and then arrest you for CCW because you didn't have your permit on your person? What kind of legal conduct has induced this kind of paranoid thinking?

I couldn't read the thread from VCDL, your link took me to blank page. But the only time I've ever heard this kind of comment before, it was from people who were deeply involved in illegal activities (the drug trade).

Jeff

 

[ilbob]

If a LEO comes to the door, and you choose not to invite the LEO inside, but instead choose to converse on the porch or in the yard, what happens if the LEO becomes aware of your CC handgun?
Obviously, if you are OC, then you should not even step out of your door unless you are in a a state and locality with OC-friendly laws.

There are very few states (maybe none) that restrict you from carrying on your own property in whatever manner you choose, assuming you are not otherwise prohibited.

Everything else being equal, its probably a good idea not to invite him inside.

The OC thing is a little muddled if you live in an apartment building, condo, or town home where the property outside your front door may not be yours.

 

[Treo]

What kind of legal conduct has induced this kind of paranoid thinking?

I am soooooooooo biting my tongue right now.

In Colorado open carry is legal everywhere(EDIT wrong information OC is legal except in city government buildings so posted) but the PDR Denver. Concealed carry W/out a permit is allowed in my Vehicle, on my property or, in my business. If you get caught carrying W/out having your permit on you it's like a no insurance ticket, you show up on your court date W/ proof that you had a valid permit at the time of the incident & they dismiss the case.

I have no duty to inform in Colorado and no cop that comes to my door W/out a warrant is getting any farther than the porch.

 

[ravencon]

Unless you live in an apartment or a restrictive city, you should be able to open carry anywhere on your own property without hassles

That is an assumption I would not make in some jurisdictions. I'd bet that if I was open carrying while mowing my lawn someone who noticed it would call the police. I strongly suspect that I'd be charged with disturbing the peace and would have my CC license revoked. I live in Massachusetts but I'd be that there are more than a few states that open carry on your own property could have dire consequences.

 

[ilbob]

Unless you live in an apartment or a restrictive city, you should be able to open carry anywhere on your own property without hassles

That is an assumption I would not make in some jurisdictions. I'd bet that if I was open carrying while mowing my lawn someone who noticed it would call the police. I strongly suspect that I'd be charged with disturbing the peace and would have my CC license revoked. I live in Massachusetts but I'd be that there are more than a few states that open carry on your own property could have dire consequences.

I think it would be hard to charge someone with that for carrying on their own property, but since MA is a may issue state, it could lead to no more CC permit.

Incidentally, did you see that the state house of MA just voted to reduce the permit fee to $40???? By a major league majority too - like 95-47.

 

[ravencon]

But the only time I've ever heard this kind of comment before, it was from people who were deeply involved in illegal activities (the drug trade).

An absurd comment and not very High Road.

 

[phonesysphonesys]

I opened carried in Fairfax City with out a problem while working in the yard. Was having trouble with low life neighbors. Solved threat from neighbor!

Semper Fi

 

[K5mitch]

In Virginia, you can carry to your heart's content in any manner you chose about your own property.

 

[Craig_AR]

Fixed the Link and Other stuff

I apologize for the link to nothingness. It is a result of the way the VCDL site uses scripts and calls. I should have checked it before posting it.
the new link instruction do work - go to www.vcdl.org home page and click on the 7-29-08 Update, Part 1.

Now, allow me to expound a bit based on comments in the thread so far.

Yes, Virginia allows you to carry on your own property.
The thrust of the issue has to do with exposing yourself to intrusive or unwarranted LEO action if you find yourself either visible to the public (i.e. in your yard but in plain view of the street) or even off your property (e.g. you step into the street while talking), and happen to be dealing with a LEO anxious to control a gun situation.

Sadly, not all LEOs fully know and apply the real gun laws of their jurisdiction (see the recent THR thread on the continuing gun grab in Louisiana
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=354033&highlight=katrina
, and below for a recent example local to me in Virginia).
The "knock and talk" situation, referred to in my OP, basically gives a LEO an opportunity for a warrantless search of your premises if he comes inside. If one does not know the real law, and is either nervous about citizens with guns, or wants to make a point, you might find yourself in trouble.

So, my original question whether any one who carries at home keeps their paperwork with them is not necessarily about complying with the real law. It is more about minimizing hassle even if "in teh right."

THe local example: On June 23 a Fairfax County police officer stopped a North Carolina motorist for running a red light. NC driver had a NC CCP (which is fully honored and reciprocated by VA), and so notified the officer and that he was currently carrying. Apparently that is the law in NC; it is not required in VA. Policeman calls for back-up, and proceeds to disarm the driver, arrest him and charge him both for the concealed carry, and for transporting the gun across the NC-VA state line. When they got to court, the judge explained to the arresting officer that neither of those actions are crimes, and dismissed the charges. Latest information from VCDL (same link as above) is that the cops have not dropped the charges for running the red light.
(Craig's personal opinion.. are the Fairfax County police BEGGING for a lawsuit for false arrest?)

Disclaimer - all of my contacts with that same police department (and I needed to call them yesterday on a traffic hazard non-emergency issue) have been great. I am sorry three of the force caused such a mess by not really knowing the laws.

craig

 

[ilbob]

Federal courts have recognized the "knock and talk" strategy as a reasonable investigative tool when officers seek to gain an occupant's consent to search or when officers reasonably suspect criminal activity. This investigative tactic is not inherently unreasonable.

I highlighted the important words for you.

The answer of course, is that the cops did not come to visit you because they are bored. They either came to ask you about a crime they think someone else may have committed, or one they think you might have committed, or perhaps both.

It is thus to your advantage not to help them convict you of anything, so letting them in (the consent part) is almost always a dumb idea. OTOH, common courtesy might lead one to invite him in if it was raining or the weather was otherwise inclement, but that could also be a trick they are using to gain entry.

Your chances of having negative contacts with police are substantially reduced by not engaging in criminal activity.

I guess I don't really have a problem with the knock and talk tactic. If you don't wish to talk with them, just say so. If you do not wish to let them in, don't.

<added> From the VCDL alert. They have the right answer.

My suggestion - don't participate. "Sorry, officer, I am busy right now and don't have time to chat. Sorry, but you can't come in. Thanks, anyway."

 

[Jeff White]

The "knock and talk" situation, referred to in my OP, basically gives a LEO an opportunity for a warrantless search of your premises if he comes inside. If one does not know the real law, and is either nervous about citizens with guns, or wants to make a point, you might find yourself in trouble.

No, it doesn't give him an opportunity for a warrant less search. It gives him an opportunity to see any contraband that is in plain sight and take enforcement action based on what is found in plain sight. It's not carte blanche to search the home and if he asks your consent all you have to do is say no. Even if there is contraband in plain sight, the officer still must get a warrant to search the rest of the house. So unless it is against the law to have a firearm in your own home, I don't understand your concern.

First off, you don't have to invite the officer in. Step outside and conduct your business on the step, or conduct it through the door.

Secondly, unless the police are canvassing the neighborhood looking for witnesses to a crime or other incident, the chance of the police just showing up at your door to talk to you are pretty slim. Unless you are involved in other illegal activities. The American public probably has the least amount of contact with the police then the citizens of any other industrialized nation. Many law abiding citizens go through their lives without ever talking to a police officer in his official capacity. For the rest, their contact is usually limited to being the victim of a crime or after they have committed a minor traffic offense.

THe local example: On June 23 a Fairfax County police officer stopped a North Carolina motorist for running a red light. NC driver had a NC CCP (which is fully honored and reciprocated by VA), and so notified the officer and that he was currently carrying. Apparently that is the law in NC; it is not required in VA. Policeman calls for back-up, and proceeds to disarm the driver, arrest him and charge him both for the concealed carry, and for transporting the gun across the NC-VA state line. When they got to court, the judge explained to the arresting officer that neither of those actions are crimes, and dismissed the charges. Latest information from VCDL (same link as above) is that the cops have not dropped the charges for running the red light.
(Craig's personal opinion.. are the Fairfax County police BEGGING for a lawsuit for false arrest?)

What does this have to do with a knock and talk contact? The officer's didn't know the law, it was all straightened out in court. Did the mistake the officers made cancel out the original violation that caused the contact? Why should they drop the charge for running the red light? False arrest is pretty hard to prove. It's going to take someone convincing the judge that the officers knew they were arresting the NC CCW holder in violation of the law and did it anyway. If they can prove they acted in good faith, I doubt the suit would succeed. There are simply too many laws and court decisions that affect how they are enforced to keep all of them in your head. I've called the states attorney at home at 4am to get his take on what charges were appropriate before. I guess I'm just confused about how this case leads to a discussion of a knock and talk contact.

An absurd comment and not very High Road.

Not an absurd comment at all and totally on topic. If there is something going on in Virgina that has the legal gun owners worried about the police doing knock and talks in order to arrest them, then we should know about it. I have read a lot on this forum, but this is the first time I ever read a law abiding gun owner worried about a knock and talk.

Jeff

 

[Treo]

Secondly, unless the police are canvassing the neighborhood looking for witnesses to a crime or other incident, the chance of the police just showing up at your door to talk to you are pretty slim. Unless you are involved in other illegal activities

Or if you just happen to be the guy living in the next house they mistakenly invade in the middle of the night.

 

[SomeKid]

Jeff,

If you think it is High Road OK to insinuate a gun-owner who does not trust his local police is simply up to no good let me ask you a question, as derived from your first post in this thread.

The only time I hear cops brushing off questions and concerns like those posted here earlier comes from rogue jack-booted thugs. Do you Illinois cops not like questions being asked? What kind of conduct on your parts gives you these paranoid and delusional feelings about citizens with guns not trusting cops?

...I think I made my point. I hope you can see the point I was making, if not, the reason I did this was pretty simple, I don't trust me own local cops. Your insinuation that not trusting local cops = bad guy is more than a bit of a stretch, and a slap in the face to every liberty loving man who understands that the government is not our friend. Also, if the OP was the first time you heard about a KT being something we the citizens do not feel comfortable with, let me state that any cop who shows up on my front door and "just wants to talk" is an unwelcome guest, and no matter how bad the weather, isn't setting foot in my home. Why? Because I do not trust them not to try something. The local cops are dirty, the one plus we have is we tend to prosecute rogue ones pretty well. Our most recent elected sheriff is finding that out, may Billy Long die in prison.

All that said, I open-carry when mowing, without carrying ID or a HCP. It is legal, and I do it. Even though I don't like or trust your average cop around here, I refuse to let them stand between me and exercising my human rights.

 

[Jeff White]

What I'm saying is "are the local cops doing knock and talks to make cases against gun owners where you live or are you just being a little paranoid?"

And it's true, the discussion about things like knock and talks is the kind of thing you'd read on a forum for marijuana growers. Are we that paranoid now? If so what's made us that way? Can anyone show me ONE case where a knock and talk was used to try to make an arrest on a law abiding gun owner?

If you are that afraid of your local police and you aren't doing anything wrong then you've been reading the threads in legal here for too long or you need to move.

We have a rule here in S&T about threads being based on reality. I want to see some proof that this is happening. The only time I ever heard of anything similar was when some city on the East coast was going door to door in bad neighborhoods and offering to search kids rooms for guns. The program was a complete failure. There was a thread here on it at the time.

If you guys think the police don't have anything better to do then knock on people's doors and try to talk their way into a home so they can make a case, then I'm here to tell you you're wrong.

If the gun culture has reached the point where you all feel like you are members of the underground hiding out from the Nazi occupiers then I am through with it.

Jeff

 

[SomeKid]

Jeff,

You are a cop, you see it from a different POV. As a young gun owner, I see the ATF incinerating children in Waco, I see the ATF investigating and making life hell for a guy in Wisconsin whose gun malfunctions, I see/hear of the ATF doing hundreds of other questionable activities (anyone in here support the way they "test" guns to see if they are MGs?) and how do you expect us to NOT think of them as America's SS (which is exactly what I think the ATF are).

As an aside, when it comes to my local cops, well, here, easier to let you read the actual news. (Short to medium length). http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_132303.asp

Lastly, let me ask you, when law abiding honest gun owners look at LE with unease, is it We the People who need to get a clue, or do you think, just maybe, the attitude of LE in this country might need reviewed? Can you, in all the years you've been a cop honestly say you have never seen questionable actions by your brothers, or an outright violation of some citizens rights? How many times have you seen gun owners on here criticize our own for bad conduct? How often do cops police their own? See the rising problem?

 

[Big Del]

It is not out of the question for people to not want to talk to LEO's they act like friends but often are not. It has been proven time after time you are incriminating your self, the more you talk the better chances of something going not in your favor. It now becomes my word against theres.
It is quite obvious that some of us have been doing things to long, I still love protect and serve or assume everyone is guilty what ever makes us feel better at the end of the day.

 

[Jeff White]

This is not about someone not wanting to talk to the police, it's not about Waco, Ruby Ridge or anything the BATFE has done since Elliot Ness. It's about law abiding gun owners who aren't breaking any laws sitting around and worrying that their local police are going to do a knock and talk to see if they can arrest them for not breaking the law.

Personally, I don't care if you hate me or everyone who has ever worn a badge. What I care about is the gun culture, who has just won the biggest battle since the Bill of Rights was ratified, sitting around and worrying that the police are going to try to get into their house so they can arrest them.

At least the stoners and tweakers are actually violating the law when they sit around and discuss these things. Someone explain to me, without dragging up Waco, Ruby Ridge or any other police abuse you can think of, where law abiding gun owners are being arrested on false charges after a knock and talk? What department is operating such a program? How many law abiding gun owners are currently incarcerated because of this nefarious practice? Why hasn't the NRA, JPFO, GOA or any other Second Amendment Group picked up on this abuse? Show me one email alert from any second amendment organization.

And if you can't prove that this is happening and thus a legitimate subject for discussion, tell me why, after Heller has settled the issue of RKBA being an individual right, and many smaller cities are repealing their gun bans, you are so worried about it happening.

And since this isn't appropriate for S&T I'm moving it to General Gun Discussion.

It's in your court, convince me you aren't being just a little paranoid. Be warned, only facts are acceptable. Bring up any propaganda and you should be prepared to prove that the case is actually as it's been described.

In case no one has told you guys, we're winning....

Jeff

 

[GigaBuist]

What I care about is the gun culture... sitting around and worrying that the police are going to try to get into their house so they can arrest them.

I'm pretty much a card carrying member of the Tin Foil Hat Brigade and this isn't something that I worry about.

If you aren't engaged in criminal activity, and couldn't possibly be charged with anything, go ahead and talk to the cops out on the porch. Treat it like a traffic stop that you can end at any moment.

If I was still living in an apartment w/out a CCW permit I'd probably momentarily close the door and ditch the pistol because I don't want to be a test case for just how far my private property extends, but here in my own home on my own land, I'll just keep it there.

Of course, it doesn't really matter what I "would do" because I've never had a cop just roll up to my place and knock on the door. Don't know a single person that has unless they were engaged in criminal activity.

The only thing we can really gain from a thread like this is an understanding of just exactly when a peace officer has started violating the law himself. If you find yourself in such a situation you will not stop it, but at least you'll know when its happened and understand that it'll all be cleared up in court.

 

[GigaBuist]

You are a cop, you see it from a different POV. As a young gun owner, I see the ATF

Okay, I was talking about regular state/county/city cops in the previous post. If you get a knock on the door from the ATF and you don't have a license for something-or-another from them you should just turn into a Furby repeating, "I'd like a lawyer."

 

[freakshow10mm]

I always have my CPL in my wallet and always have it in my pants as part of my daily wardrobe. It's never an issue of whether I have it with me or not.

 

[SomeKid]

Jeff,

First off, your request I am quoting:

Someone explain to me, without dragging up Waco, Ruby Ridge or any other police abuse you can think of, where law abiding gun owners are being arrested on false charges after a knock and talk?

I would consider false charges and an arrest after a KT police abuse, but if you want just knock and talks, fine.

Have you forgotten Katrina already? As I recall, they knocked on doors, and talked. Then violated a lot of rights.

Of course, I expect your response to note that this was pre-Heller, as were most things. The simply fact is, a majority of cops when it comes down to it, don't care about our rights and have no qualms about violating them. If the previous statement was not true, then why is almost all, or every single cop organization inhibiting expansion of concealed carry laws? You might be a truly pro-gun cop, but you are an extreme minority, as evidenced by your co-workers actions. What I find interesting is your refusal to acknowledge the simple truth in that.