CC at Home- Paperwork?

[ravencon]

I don't think it is paranoid or an indicator of being a drug dealer to have some concern about knock and talk situations.

As a lawyer I've heard of many, many pretextual arrests from colleagues who practice criminal law. Many years ago I served briefly as an assistant DA and I've seen cases where arrests were made on flimsy grounds because a police officer didn't like some one's attitude.

The best defense against a bad outcome is to act sensibly and assert your rights firmly but calmly and reasonably. If a police officer pressures you to be allowed into your house I'd advise that you ask him to radio for his/her supervisor to come to the scene. In the unlikely event that the officer is absolutely insistent on going in I would not physically resist but I would clearly state that the entry was without your consent.

Again, this sort of nightmare situation is rare but it does happen.

 

[ilbob]

For the most part cops abide by what the law allows them to do. If you think that is wrong, you need to work to get the law changed. I think there are a lot of things that need changing in these areas, but you need to beat up on your legislators to get it changed.

 

[doc2rn]

I just dont answer the door. I have do not tresspass signs up for a reason. If they need to talk to me they can call, they have me on speed dial. (I sometimes dive for corpses at the local lake)
I put up a gate at the end of the drive so as to avoid any unpleasantries with the local LEO as I have had to shoo them off my property before. (They tried to say I was growing pot, fortunately a professor of mine went to court as an expert and informed him it was a naturally occurring weed similar to marijuana)
LEO are not your friend! Be polite, courteous and direct all questions to your lawyer.

 

[DrewH]

I live in Virginia. I don't usually have my wallet with my CHP and DL on me in my house, and I have my gun with me. You can carry concealed on your own property and its "curtilage" (nice word), in VA without a permit. I have a million other more important things to worry about than police seeing me on my property with my gun.

 

[ilbob]

I put up a gate at the end of the drive so as to avoid any unpleasantries with the local LEO as I have had to shoo them off my property before. (They tried to say I was growing pot, fortunately a professor of mine went to court as an expert and informed him it was a naturally occurring weed similar to marijuana)
LEO are not your friend! Be polite, courteous and direct all questions to your lawyer.

There is a fair amount of wild pot that grows around here. When I was still in high school, there was a good sized stand of it growing in a ditch in front of a local school. No one realized what it was until the plants were several feet tall and a custodian was sent out to cut them down. Somewhere along the way the cops got called and they wanted to arrest the custodian for cutting down the weeds in the ditch. IIRC, they interrogated him for several hours, before letting him go. Eventually the cops claimed they had been "watching" the patch of weeds for several months waiting for someone to come harvest them.

 

[KandyKane]

Hi

New member here but long time gun owner and gun rights activist. I have to be honest, the quote that one of the members made scared the beejeepers out of me!

QUOTE: But the only time I've ever heard this kind of comment before, it was from people who were deeply involved in illegal activities (the drug trade).

I'm definitely not involved in the drug trade, but I'm sure paranoid! Aren't all gun owners? Otherwise, we wouldnt even own guns! Cops included!

I guess Jeff White is a moderator, so I dont want to slam him. But that really seemed like a knee jerk statement. Who's side is he on?

 

[psyopspec]

Who's side is he on?

Is this for real? Because someone asked for evidence that a "knock and talk" is a tactic that the typical law-abiding gun owner has to fear from his local constabulary, that makes him "low road," having a "knee-jerk reaction," and 'one of them.' Asking for evidence is something the reasonable man does to combat illogic. I have yet to see any provided - Katrina doesn't count since the officers weren't fishing - they were specifically there to pull people from their homes and/or take their guns. Completely and utterly deplorable, but OT from the tactic mentioned in the original post.

In addition, my original question asking where it might be illegal to safely open or CC on one's own residential property has gone unanswered. This thread has no basis in facts or reality, and all the clucking by the chicken littles has failed to cough up any shred of evidence that the K&T is something to be feared.

If this is what THR is coming to, a place where cooler heads with arguments backed by reason and logic no longer prevail, it's time for me to start looking elsewhere to seek my entertainment.

 

[Sam]

Mr. White,
As functionary of government, any government, the actions and behavior of any LEO are rightfully suspect to any citizen.

You can make any argument you wish, but the business of the LEO, is the exercise of, or the threat of exercising, violence in the name of the government.

When prudent LEO’s respond to a situation, they always act from worst case scenario basis. Prudent citizens, just like prudent cops always initially function from “worst case scenario” and modify their reaction based on demonstrated behavior.

A particular individual LEO may be a nice guy and reasonable, and have demonstrated his judgment to enough people that they trust him. That is called a Good Cop.
Some have demonstrated poor judgment, those are called Bad Cops.
Some have never demonstrated their behavior either way, they are Just a Cop.
If an LEO has proven his good judgment to someone then, he has no issues, until that time, as the designated agent of governmental force; he is and will remain suspect until he demonstrates his trustworthiness.

That is exactly the same position/action/approach that LEO’s take with citizens. If they do not care for it they need to go into a different line of work.


Sam Damewood

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

Craig_VA since in VA you can carry on your property either open or concealed with no license or permit or registration I can't see how this could be used as an "exigent circumstance".

Let's say the cops (either because they didn't know the law or tried use lack of knowledge maliciously) did try to use you "having a concealed or open carry weapon on your own property" as their reason for entering the property any evidence collected would be inadmissible.

Scenario:
You are open carrying on your property and cops use that to enter your home w/o warrant. Inside they find dead body, knife in body, your fingerprints on knife, and video camera with film of you murdering someone. None of it is coming in.

By open carrying you are committing no crime. Without a crime in progress or something that will stand up in court to show officers acted to prevent imminent danger to life or bodily harm, to prevent a suspect from escaping, or to prevent evidence from being destroyed their is no exigent circumstance. If the cops then enter without warrant not only will the evidence not be admissable but you are looking at nice civil suit.

A K&T is more used like this. Cops suspect you of dealing. They do a K&T. You come to door w/ odor of marijuana, cop looks over your shoulder and sees what "officer reasonably believed" was a joint in ashtray. Officer enter the home. They arrest you for possession and while there search house to find $50K worth of drugs. Now you are getting not only personal possession charge but also possession with intent. While they had no evidence to support a warrant for the PWI it doesn't matter. They were able to enter the house via K&T and you (either your person, your actions, your words) or your property (evidence of crime in progress, evidence, etc) "sold you out".

 

[DrewH]

Well, I guess I agree with Jeff White, it is a silly concern. If you are that concerned about it, yes carry your ID documents with you at all times with your gun, as asked by the OP. I don't at home.

I have only had contact with police_once_at my residence in 25 years. I cannot recall a thread on THR in which police used the fact that a person was carrying a gun on his property to justify searching his house.

VA specifically allows you to carry concealed without a license on your own property, so carry concealed if you are concerned about police going to find out about it. If you step off your property you take your documents or open carry, depending on your tastes.

 

[SomeKid]

I wonder if Jeff ever plans to respond now that I have pointed out one well known scenario where a knock and talk was used against home-owners.

 

[Elza]

In Texas you can carry what ever you like how ever you like on private property. I always carry and often have my outer shirt off while working in the yard. No one has called the cops on me yet. Since I have my pants on I have my wallet with my CHL in it. However, it isn’t necessary on private property.

 

[GigaBuist]

I wonder if Jeff ever plans to respond now that I have pointed out one well known scenario where a knock and talk was used against home-owners.

I will. You said:

Have you forgotten Katrina already? As I recall, they knocked on doors, and talked. Then violated a lot of rights.

Have any of them been brought up on charges related to carrying a concealed weapon on their own property?

If the answer to that is "NO" then it isn't really germane to the discussion at hand.

Have any of the victims of the NOLA gun confiscations, that weren't prohibited from owning a gun, been brought up on any criminal charges related to owning a weapon?

If the answer is again "NO" then it's even less germane to the discussion at hand.

What we can learn from NOLA is that in extreme circumstances it's not a good idea to reveal to them that you own firearms. I haven't heard of one single instance of gun confiscation that resulted from police finding a weapon an law abiding citizen. They were always displayed promptly to the police before confiscation.

Now, when we apply this to normal every day life, wherein it's possible, though quite likely rare, that a policeman knocks on your door to ask about a robbery next door and you meet outside to talk with him; it's probably not a good idea to start whipping out firearms for his inspection.

Was anybody here planning on doing that? Didn't think so.

So, SomeKid, can you give us an example, just one, of a non-prohibited person being criminally charged with carrying a concealed weapon on their own property that was not involved in any other criminal activity that got nabbed in a "knock and talk?" 'Cuz that's sorta what we were talking about.

Ball's in your court.

 

[B yond]

We have 4 rules for gun safety. I have 2 additional rules.

#1 Always have a gun on you.

#2 Always have your permit and ID on you.

Very simple. No Problems.

 

[230RN]

I lock the door when I go out of my apartment (private entrance) for any purpose, even taking the trash out to the dumpster.

My keys are on a belt loop.

My belt loop is chained to my wallet.

My CCW and DL are in the wallet.

It's very rare that I leave without this whole assemblage.

If I'm in my robe, I stick the keys, belt loop, chain, and wallet in the robe's left pocket and a small pocket gun in the right pocket. (Mountain lions are not unknown in this area.)

If for any bizarre reason I happen to lock the door behind me without the aforementiond belt loop, keys, chain and wallet, I have a top-secret method of getting back in my apartment. (Yes, it happens anyhow from time to time.)

No problem. Bear in mind that I don;t have to do any yard work or any outside maintenance anyhow.

Oh, and it's about 100 yards to get off the private property anyhow.

 

[SomeKid]

Giga,

Go read Jeff's question. He asks not about people being charged with carrying a concealed weapon, but he asked where gun owners were arrested on false charges after a knock and talk. I have already answered that question by pointing to a very common example he already forgot, Katrina.

The next time you try to redirect me somewhere, try to do it when I am answering the wrong question, and try to direct me onto the previous question, not one of your own masquerading under the guise of correcting me. Your question is not what "we" were talking about, it is what you want to talk about.

I will bite on this part though, as I find the comment fascinating in its comedy:

What we can learn from NOLA is that in extreme circumstances it's not a good idea to reveal to them that you own firearms. I haven't heard of one single instance of gun confiscation that resulted from police finding a weapon an law abiding citizen.

Do you not consider such an action abuse? Considering that guns were confiscated after a knock and talk, from law abiding citizens inside their own homes, how can this not be an example of a knock and talk being used to abuse a citizen's rights? Or maybe, since that old woman openly displayed her unloaded pistol inside her home, after a knock and talk, she should be faulted? Is that what you are insinuating?

 

[ilbob]

I guess Jeff White is a moderator,

He is.

so I dont want to slam him.

Than don't.

But that really seemed like a knee jerk statement.

It did a little to me too. But I would not get all that worked up about it. No doubt everyone here has typed in something at one time or another that just came across poorly to someone else.

Who's side is he on?

Why not ask him? I am pretty sure he is not the enemy. There are thousands, maybe tens of thousands of posters on this board. I doubt any two of them agree on everything. Merely holding a POV about something that does not agree with your own does not make anyone your enemy.

 

[chris in va]

Obviously, if you are OC, then you should not even step out of your door unless you are in a a state and locality with OC-friendly laws.

Many states, including VA, allow open/concealed carry on your property without any sort of permit.

 

[Jeff White]

Somekid,
There were laws passed at the federal and state level after Katrina to insure that those kinds of abuses never happen again. When and where has it happened since?

KandyKane said,

I'm definitely not involved in the drug trade, but I'm sure paranoid! Aren't all gun owners? Otherwise, we wouldnt even own guns! Cops included!

Anyone who is paranoid enough to sit around and worry that the police are going to do a knock and talk so they can get into the house and arrest them for not breaking any laws needs to sit down and take a serious reality check. If you own guns because you are worried about something like that happening, then perhaps you should re-evaluate your decision to own them.

New member here but long time gun owner and gun rights activist. I have to be honest, the quote that one of the members made scared the beejeepers out of me!

You're scared because I questioned why someone who isn't breaking any law would publically ask a question like that? I am shocked that in this day and age, after we've just won the biggest decision on the second amendment since the Bill of Rights was ratified, that law abiding gun owners sit around and fantasize about being entrapped and raided by the police. It is exactly the kind of talk that is routinely heard from stoners and tweakers. The difference is, and it's a very big difference, is that they have reason to be paranoid, because their lifestlye is, in fact illegal. And it's scary to you that I was shocked to see that comment? Why is it scary? Do you fantasize about being the character in a graphic novel fighting for freedom from an oppressive government?

What should be scary is the fact that we are having this conversation at all. That so many lawful gun owners are so out of touch with the reality of the world they live in that they worry about things like that.

I think too many people here spent to much time watching The Shield and Training Day and not enough time following what happens in the real world.

Again, the challenge is out there. Prove that your paranoia is justified.

Jeff

 

[Sam]

tell me why, after Heller has settled the issue of RKBA being an individual right, and many smaller cities are repealing their gun bans, you are so worried about it happening.

Because after all the stink of this great win you still cannot buy a gun in DC.
When the big cities and the pink states obey, We will THINK about it. When the head city of your own state allows reasonable access to handguns, we will THINK about it.

Just because some jurisdictions have written laws forbidding the "Katrina style" of operation, does not mean that all LEO's will obey them, just as all LEO's do not obey all other laws.

LEO's are merely public employees that don't have to worry about obeying gun laws.

Sam

 

[dalepres]

but this is the first time I ever read a law abiding gun owner worried about a knock and talk.

Perhaps you missed the news about the knock and talk and knock on your butt and take (not talk) in New Orleans. Granted there is no emergency going on in Virginia but, for those who were prepared in New Orleans there was no emergency either.

The current state of affairs in Virginia may be completely different from the then state of affairs in New Orleans but, unless you think that difference warrented the knock down and take visits, it is clear that law abiding citizens should give consideration to things like how they will respond to a visit by the police - expected or otherwise - which is all that it appears the OP is doing.

 

[ASM826]

In case no one has told you guys, we're winning....Jeff White

We have won a couple of important victories, and CC had expanded to a surprising number of states. However, I have the feeling, and so do many people that I know, that we are still and continuously threatened by people who want to end private ownership of firearms. Heller went 5-4. It should have been 9-0, a no-brainer.

I don't want to lose my rights, and so I do feel uneasy. The response of Washington DC officials to the Heller decision is an indicator of why I still don't trust them to respect my freedoms. I suspect they are stonewalling, buying time, and hoping for a shift in November.

[I recognize that this takes the thread off in a different direction, it isn't LEOs that are making these decisions in Washington DC, it's local politicians]

 

[dalepres]

Have any of them been brought up on charges related to carrying a concealed weapon on their own property?

If the answer to that is "NO" then it isn't really germane to the discussion at hand.

Have any of the victims of the NOLA gun confiscations, that weren't prohibited from owning a gun, been brought up on any criminal charges related to owning a weapon?

If the answer is again "NO" then it's even less germane to the discussion at hand.

As long as they weren't arrested, it doesn't matter if they were beat up and received broken bones as one 80 year old woman did?

What we can learn from NOLA is that in extreme circumstances it's not a good idea to reveal to them that you own firearms. I haven't heard of one single instance of gun confiscation that resulted from police finding a weapon an law abiding citizen. They were always displayed promptly to the police before confiscation.

There were law abiding people "randomly" pulled over by police, not at check points, and asked if they had guns. When the people answered honestly, because to lie would be a felony, the LEO took the guns. I can't help but wonder if what prompted some such traffic stops was that the vehicles were stuffed with personal belongings, suggesting a high likelihood that there would be a gun in the vehicle - even though legal.

Any advice to lie to LEO when asked if you had guns is bad advice. The only way to not tell them you have guns when they ask is to lie.

 

[Jeff White]

Perhaps you missed the news about the knock and talk and knock on your butt and take (not talk) in New Orleans.

Perhaps you missed the news about the federal law and a number of state laws that have been passed since that happened that prohibit this very thing? Try the search function there are a lot of threads on that here.

What I draw from this thread is that many in the gun culture have been so traumatized by the bogie man of law enforcement taking their guns that they have adopted the same mindset that people who live a criminal lifestyle have.

I cannot believe that so many of you are afraid of being arrested for legal conduct. I suggest that you stop getting all of your information about life from the JPFO, GOA, NRA, Unintended Consequences and Oliver Stone films and start finding out how things really are for yourself.

I suppose for the people on our side who have no understanding of how things work in the real world, Heller wasn't much of a win. The USSC didn't order Washington DC to issue every citizen a 1911 for their own personal protection.

I don't know what you expected, but Fenty and Daley and the rest are playing right into our hands by not rolling over. Each court decision on every roadblock they put in the way of relatively unrestricted RKBA is another nail in the coffin of the gun grabbers.

It is safe to come out into the light now. Stop acting like you are a criminal. You aren't.

Jeff

 

[dalepres]

I don't know what you expected, but Fenty and Daley and the rest are playing right into our hands by not rolling over.

Fenty didn't play right into the hands of any innocents in D.C. that have been killed since June 15 that might have been saved had they or someone near them had a weapon available for self defense.