CC holders, what would you do?

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I have a CC here in Atlanta, but we are not allowed to carry on MARTA, our public transportation around the city. Amazingly, the criminals continue to carry and do as they please, while the rest of us have to worry about the hassle and the threats.

I guess it isn't that much different from Calgary, it is a shame.
 
Okay, no armchair commandoing, first we have to get the facts of what actually happened:
What would you do?

he has no weapons that you can see, but you have no idea if he has aids or hepatitis and you also realize that there is no rationalizing with him in his current state.

Do you show him the holster?
Do you defend yourself without the use of the sidearm?
Do you worry that he may grab your firearm if he tackles you?

What the hell do you do in a situation like that? What if your trying to hit him in the face multiple times because he's punching you and its not doing anything, he just won't stop because of the drugs?

man, this happened to me tonight. I don't carry because its illegal, but I didn't have anything on me, no knife, no spray, just my friggen wits. I didn't instigate him but I did get him on my camera phone video just for kicks, but I avoided eye contact just because its not worth me getting aids if I make him bleed.

Just curious to see what CC holders would do in this situation.

Okay, what exactly happened to you? I'm having a difficult time separating the "what if's " from the "this happened to me" dialog. Did he lunge at you? Did he get in your face and yell at you? Did you yell at him, or yell back at him? Did he actually hit you? Did you actually hit him in the face several times with no apparent effect? Like I said, I'm trying to separate the "what if" from the "what did happen". Once that is clarified then perhaps there can be more concrete replies. All I can tell somewhat for certain is that some guy who might have been hopped up on drugs boarded a train and was video'd with the OP's cell phone, beyond that I'm unclear.

I will say that if there is no reasoning with the dude then flashing your holster will do no good, and might in fact only instigate him to escalate his behavior, or will make him have a desire to take possession of your firearm. Once a battle is engaged then things change quickly, but even there there is no clear and absolute precise decision/response to take. If he tries to take the gun then training in retention comes into play. If he attacks you then training in hand to hand self defense comes into play. At which point your defense crosses into the realm of reasonable and prudent use of lethal force to protect your life will depend upon too many variables to easily go into here.

I'm no expert, I just have unofficial opinions based on personal experience and various things I've seen and read. I'm not about to tell someone in another country that if a drugged up guy gets on a train to then flash your holster at him, that sounds like a good way to get dead or jailed yourself.

I'll go back to my armchair now (checking to ensure that the chair I'm sitting in does in fact have arms, not that I'm armed, not that I'm not). Present the facts, or cleanly separate the facts from the questions, then proceed. Otherwise you're just stirring stew.

ps, I know nobody was calling me an armchair commando, just trying to get to the facts.
 
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i'd draw my weapon, warn him to back down, and if he didn't, shoot him. he presents a visible threat, and you have no idea whether he's armed or not. being on a subway car leaves you no means of avoidance or escape, so technically, your life is in danger.
 
I would have called the police the instant I observed this behavior.

If the man approached me I would have assumed the interview stance and loudly announced, "Sir, I can't help you."

I would have tried to put a seat inbetween us or gotten into the next car. If he continued his aggression I would have OC sprayed him in the face and followed up with strikes if necessary, enough to get away from him safely.

Then I would have pulled the emergency cord (if there is one) to try and get the hell off of that train.
 
Why not just use your secret ninja techniques of death?

Come on now...this is a serious question asked by the OP. Do we really need to armchair commando it to death?
And it was a semi serious answer. Its a fight, whether its with a gun, knife, or your ballpoint pen. The druggie comes at you in a threatening manner, you either die like a liberal or fight like a man.
 
Seems like this is more of a 'bouncer' scenario than an attack scenario. You have an unruly jackass on your hands, not necessarily a threat to life or property. Some folks are all thunder and no lightning... but you can never tell. The best idea, it appears to me, would be to club him like a seal when he was harassing the lady. Don't mind me, though. I'm running a nice fever right now.
 
I thought I read that the person lunged at him.
I don't think the guy lunged at him. I think the OP's wondering what to do if the guy had done so - I'm reckoning that that's the 'what-if' part of the post. That's how I read it, anyways.
 
At this point he begins harassing passengers...

That is where I call the police.

Do you show him the holster?
Do you defend yourself without the use of the sidearm?
Do you worry that he may grab your firearm if he tackles you?

No, that could be brandishing and is surely a deadly threat. Both prosecutable.
Yes, for as long as I believe my life is not in jeopardy.
Always. Never let anyone close enough to touch your firearm.

What the hell do you do in a situation like that? What if your trying to hit him in the face multiple times because he's punching you and its not doing anything, he just won't stop because of the drugs?

You do what ever you can do.
I'm not ready to take a man's life unless I truly believe he's about to take mine. If he's only capable of a fist fight (no weapon), that's what he's going to get.

Everyone has a different threshold. You have to know where the line is, that if crossed, you would draw your weapon on a criminal and be prepared to use deadly force. Nobody will ever know that I have a weapon until I'm about to use it.
 
i'd draw my weapon, warn him to back down, and if he didn't, shoot him. he presents a visible threat, and you have no idea whether he's armed or not. being on a subway car leaves you no means of avoidance or escape, so technically, your life is in danger.

I do believe you'd have a new spouse in your life and he wouldn't be called sweetheart.
 
No facts were stated that you had reason to fear for your life, so deadly force or a lethal weapon is not defensible.

As soon as you see him bothering others, don't what to be next - leave.
 
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Thank you for all the replies.

Some of you seem to be getting upset over the question and all i wanted was just some incite in how a CC holder would handle the situation. I'm not saying to shoot him, or brandish your sidearm or anything like that, this is all hypothetical since you were obviously not there.
I was hoping that I would hear some interesting answers from people who carry who would be in my shoes, there is no correct answer here folks, just observations that I'm making with these posts.

The guy was wigged out pretty bad, I kept to myself but at the same time was preparing for the worst, a fist fight. He walked by me a few times and I just looked out the window, soon enough he got off. Everyone was quiet and no one wanted any trouble, it was obvious.

Again, for the CC holders that answered this question, as vague as it was, there is no correct answer, I'm just observing responses is all.
thanks.
 
As a CC holder, I'd try like hell to stay away. If I couldn't I'd kick him away from me. It would have to get pretty bad before I was ready to (potentially) kill the guy. I don't see any likely scenario for a weapons draw.
 
At a civilian CCW class I took it was repeated many many times that we were not "law enforcement". Act and behave accordingly.

Incite: to provoke and urge on (incite a riot)

Insight: the capacity to discern the true nature of a situation.

(www.thefreedictionary.com)

Interesting mis-spelling or misuse of that word in that some answers would have incited the druggie to further actions.

Regarding the CCW weapon, if you're not justified in using it then you're not justified in displaying it.

I know of one local crackhead alcoholic who holds several black belts in several martial arts. I don't plan on getting into a fist fight with him, but if I do I'll hope his belt achievements were based on scoring points and not on actual effective combative contact. Point being that you don't know much if anything about the crazy dude so use due caution in whatever action or reaction you choose to take.
 
ps, it would be interesting if you could upload your short video of the dude to youtube.com and give us the link so we can see what you saw.
 
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I know of one local crackhead alcoholic who holds several black belts in several martial arts. I don't plan on getting into a fist fight with him
Thus the notion of socking him when he's not looking. Ideally, you'd have a half-dozen husky officers with batons tackle and handcuff his offending hide. Since you probably don't have that luxury, club him like a baby seal. Or leave. No sense in fighting fair when you can avoid it. Either method avoids any type of conflict where you'd be on a level playing field. CLABS simply opens you up for lawsuits and such, while likely being more satisfying in the short term.

Disclaimer: Meds wore off two hours ago.
 
It sounds like you did exactly what you should have done. Be ready to act, but don't give him a reason to single you out. If he jumps on somebody else you can crack him in the head, punch him in the throat, whatever you have an opening for, or just pull the chain that stops the train if it is so equipped. A crowded train car is about the worst spot I can think of to have to draw a gun. Too many bystanders, no room to maneuver.

Somebody mentioned 20 people in the car vs. 1 crackhead, but my experience has been 19 will freeze and 1 person will act. Maybe 2 or 3 will act after the first gets the ball rolling, or maybe they'll all just bolt. Condition White isn't something that is easily broken in your average person. Plus the biggest talker in the group may be the least inclined to act in a real situation, so having a rough-looking dude in the same car doesn't gaurantee you have backup.

So yeah, I'd have done what you did, and if the guy pulled out a knife or something (near me) I'd have to hope I could get across the car (away from him) and draw in time or disable him if he's too close. There is no surefire tactic there, if he wants to hurt people he's going to do some damage before he gets stopped, and I'd be hoping to surprise him at best...

As you saw, things can get very hairy without anyone getting hurt. Doing something to stop his tirade would have escalated the situation, so it was best to lay low and be ready to protect others if it was really needed.

My 2 cents, (or 1.8 Canadian cents...)

gp911
 
"1 - Depart the area. (Move to another car) and/or,
2 - Get off at the next available stop, then,
3 - Seek out the Transit Police and notify of the imminent threat to others.

...hand to hand self-defense tactics come into play. If you haven't any such training, I recommend you get some soon. "

Great answer! I lived in NYC 20 years, I've been in a couple of these, once with multiple armed attackers, and got out safely. There really aren't as many "crackheads" per se as there were in the 80s, now it's also meth, vikes...more likely this dude forgot to take his meds. The harder question is what you can do to avoid the subway at that hour in that place if feasible, or what to do if a woman or elderly person is threatened. If it's just you, then fade before he gets near you. If you economically have no alternative but to take the subway at night, learn to slip and fade, keep mobile and alert, never a need to pull a gun. Martial arts: I prefer the old asian dudes for teachers, but Krav Maga is okay if you can stand the stubborn, aggressive Israeli instructors...:neener:
 
he has no weapons that you can see, but you have no idea if he has aids or hepatitis and you also realize that there is no rationalizing with him in his current state.

Do you show him the holster? NO - Brandishing a weapon is a no no

Do you defend yourself without the use of the sidearm? Yes - I knock the crap out of him, kick him in the nuts, etc...

From your description - I am probably twice his size. Plenty of good witnesses on that train would point to him as the aggressor and I wouldn't be bothered by the LEOs.

Do you worry that he may grab your firearm if he tackles you?
If he can reach into my pants and pull out my firearm - he is too good for me. He knew it was there - so I didn't do a good job of concealing and I must be a big wuss for not being able to thwart a supposed crack head.
 
I carry OC for just these "in between" types of scenarios. Not every confrontation is going to be with a knife/gun wielding criminals saying "_____ or I'll kill you". I have my OC in my left hand with my right hand near my waist(not on the pistol, so don't jump on me with the "that's brandishing" lecture). The use of OC before a shooting can also do wonders for your defense when you are taken to court. It shows you took appropriate preparations with an intent not to kill. If it comes to shooting, it is you last resort not your only resort.
 
Bottom line, there is no imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death here.

There is elevated reason for concern, but no matter what happens, it's going to be tough to convince a jury you had no choice but to shoot the crazy homeless guy.

Like others have said, keep backing up, keep watching, TRANSFER THE RESPONSIBILITY TO SOMEONE ELSE. (Call the police.) Cities with large mass transit systems invest in surveillance and transit cops.

And as much as I hate to ever dwell in the grey area of using force short of deadly force, this might be one of those times a good kick might be necessary to move the threat away from you.
 
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