CCI small rifle primers 400 & 450

[CoalTrain49]

I loading 30 carbine and just realized I'm using 450 magnum primers. My load is 12 grns of Accurate #9, not quite max. but close and 110 grn Sierra FMJ. I will use these in a carbine.

My data does not call for a magnum primer. I was wondering if this is going to make any difference in the pressure. I have both regular small rifle and mag small rifle but would like to use these in my carbine loads as I don't have another rifle to use them in.

What's the difference in 400 and 450 primers?

 

[horseman1]

Cup thickness I suppose, mostly. Other more experienced folks may be able to add more information. Here is what I would do (if you havent worked up to this load with the magnum primers already).... I would not shoot those (save them for later), but instead do a proper work up looking for pressure problems along the way with the magnum primers. If you see no pressure signs when you get the powder charge very close to your load, give them a try. If you do see pressure signs somewhere along the way, stop and pull the bullets. Otherwise, shoot them up.

Taking the long way around the barn, but you can still get there

 

[Slamfire]

I am of the opinion that you want to use to use the least sensitive primers in this mechanism and if the magnum primers are less sensitive than the standard, go for it.

The 30 Carbine has a very heavy firing pin. Unlike the Garand firing pin, and M14 firing pin, the Army never had to scallop the carbine firing pin to reduce weight. Instead, being first of its type, they were able to specify a very insensitive primer. Since the 30-06 was used by a number of different weapons they could not lessen the sensitivity for the Garand without risking misfires in the other mechanisms. If you look the all fire heights of the various 30 cal military primers, the 30 carbine primer requires the highest drop of them all.




This things do slamfire out of battery and you break your carbine, you won’t be happy.

http://www.thegunzone.com/ij-m1carbine_kb.html#nb2

Above are some photos of an Iver-Johnson M1 Carbine that self-destructed while my wife was shooting it. As kB!s go it was pretty mild. However I think there should be some kind of warning out there about these old carbines. Every one of them I've picked up will fire with a partially open bolt. This is not a problem until they get dirty or use bad ammo. On this day we were using brand new Federal American Eagle FMJ rounds. The bolt failed to close all the way and, well, kB!.

We had been having a nice family outing at the range. A friend, the actual owner of the carbine, brought along a few guns for my wife to try out to find something with which she could plink.

We had fired about 75 rounds from the carbine prior to my wife trying it. On her third round the gun emitted a small blast from the breech and blew a chunk of the stock off the right side. My wife and I got our faces full of assorted crap flying out of the gun, and received a few minor burns. Luckily no one was seriously hurt.

The bolt was blown apart and the stock split along the operating rod. I recovered as many parts as I could locate and packed up for the day.

I do not know the DOB of the Iver-Johnson other than it's a "50th Anniversary (1941-1991)" reproduction, so I'm going to guess it's probably very late '80s, early '90s.

The ammunition was American Eagle. No surprise there I'm sure. The rifle, remaining ammunition, and spent casings were sent to Federal for testing. Federal came to the conclusion that the failure was due to a malfunction of the Iver-Johnson2. The rifle did not close properly prior to the ignition of the cartridge. The casing showed no signs of an overpressure load.

After receiving the carbine back I was able to repair part of the damage with a new bolt, but I had trouble finding a replacement stock.

Even with the new bolt the carbine would still fire prior to full lockup. I've seen more than one M1 Carbine lately that will do that.

Iver-Johnson's demise prior to this incident left me with no ability to obtain comment from them.

The pictures are from two days after the event and show the damage to the gun from various angles. The owner took them prior to sending the carbine to Federal as a "CYA" measure.

The other photo shows the case that failed, a fired case from the same box, and an unfired cartridge, also from the same box.

M1 Carbine out of battery slamfire

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455111

Witnessed 'powder burn' at the range today
________________________________________
Yikes. Gentleman was renting an M1 carbine from the range store and the 15th round of PMC blew off the base sending unburned powder into his face. He came into the store a bloody mess.

Fortunately he was wearing safety glasses and the 'freckles' were just superficial. Scary to witness though.

They figured the gun fired out of battery somehow. We saw the case head and it had broken off about 3/8".

Hummer70 mentioned dead GI's with carbine bolts in their heads, hearsay from a Korea War Veteran, I wonder if it was due to out of battery event or overpressure ammunition.

 

[Reloadron]

A CCI 400 small rifle primer has a cup thickness of about .020" while the CCI 450 small rifle magnum has a cup thickness of about .025" giving the CCI 450 a .005 thicker cup. This should make the primer a little less sensitive.

Your load according to my Hornady 9th edition comes in real close to the maximum for your powder used. Actually about 0.1 gn below max load and that is likely the allowable tolerance of your scale.

Magnum primers are designed to ignite slower burning powders like ball powders or spherical powders. They offer up a hotter ignition or to get a little technical primers come in different strengths, “brisance,” a word defined as the shattering effect of a high explosive and the brisance of a primer defines how hot it is.

Just about any reloading manual will advise against using a magnum primer where a standard primer is called for. The Hornady 9th edition is pretty blunt about it when they say: "Never, under any circumstances, substitute a magnum primer for a load developed for a standard primer". Pretty plain and bold print on page 62.

Now the argument can be made that the above quote was written by Hornady's liability attorneys so you decide. Personally I won't be the one to tell you go ahead and shoot them. Not just because of the fact they are magnum primers but because you have a load that is already just about max combined with a hotter than suggested primer. The M1 Carbine is not known for its super strong action. So the decision rest with you.

Ron

 

[Hondo 60]

450s (magnums) are supposed to burn hotter (and possibly longer) to fully ignite all of the powder.

I looked at Accurate's load data. (http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/WP_LoadSpec_7-2-13.pdf)
It seems you're in the safe zone.
I'd shoot 'em, but not repeat the data again without working it up.

 

[edfardos]

My last batch of CCI 400's had a few slam fires in my ar15. Luckily it can't fire out of battery. Cci450 is thicker with magnum charge. CCI #41 is exactly like the 450, with a less sensitive anvil angle.

I get the same speed with mag primers if I reduce the powder charge 3 to 5 percent.

Edfardos

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I would also continue to use the CCI-450 over the CCI-400 primers and if you can find any, change over to the CCI #41 primers.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Thanks everyone. New to 30 carbine and your responses have been helpful. Jim

 

[HOWARD J]

13 gr -aac # 9--with a standard primer is max load---shoot a couple & check for signs of pressure----find any----skip the mag primer & try again.
Have fun,
hj

 

[ArchAngelCD]

13 gr -aac # 9--with a standard primer is max load---shoot a couple & check for signs of pressure----find any----skip the mag primer & try again.
Have fun,
hj

Why would you skip the Magnum primer?

It may not be steadfast required but what's wrong with adding a safety factor? Like said above, if the gun slam-fires out of battery it will surely ruin your day and probably more.

 

[HOWARD J]

I have been shooting a carbine for 60 years with out a mag primer
i am still here--so is the gun just like new

BTY: DO YOU OWN A 30 CARBINE ??

 

[CoalTrain49]

I have been shooting a carbine for 60 years with out a mag primer
i am still here--so is the gun just like new

BTY: DO YOU OWN A 30 CARBINE ??

Yes. This is my first one, a mix master Inland 1-45. Gunsmith checked it out and declared it safe to shoot and shot it. It has a non-GI slide but everything else is military.

 

[HOWARD J]

I should have said I was talking at ArchAngel

 

[CoalTrain49]

Accurate powder tech said no problem.

Called today and tech said 12 grns #9 and mag primer is not a problem. He said the pressure will be safe. So I will fire a few and check for problems. I'm going to use what I have but will reduce charge a bit and work up. I will be switching to 2400 after about 500 rnds. as I found some locally.

It's my understanding that out-of-battery firing can be due to cases exceeding 1.29". or head space out of tolerance. I think I have a addressed both. I believe I will try to use std. primer to keep load data relevant.

Jim

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have been shooting a carbine for 60 years with out a mag primer
i am still here--so is the gun just like new

BTY: DO YOU OWN A 30 CARBINE ??

I see no reason for you to go all caps and yell at me. No reason to be so nasty just because I asked you a question that seems to have made you uncomfortable.

No, I don't own "A" 30 Carbine, I actually own three although I fail to see what difference that would make.

I'll ask again, it may not be steadfast required but what's wrong with adding a safety factor?

Try to keep this on The High Road and stop with the nasty stuff, OK?

 

[HOWARD J]

ArchAngel
You forgot while telling us how the thicker cup of the mag primer is a safety factor--using a mag primer near a max load also increases the pressure in the load.
Have fun
PS: while chewing on my hind end--don't forget to read the safety notes in reloading manuals re: do not ever use mag primers when a std. primer is called for

 

[USSR]

I will simply say, I have loaded for the M1 Carbine for many years, almost exclusively using my own cast bullet and 2400 powder. I intentionally use standard small rifle primers for my ammo. IMHO, the light weight and short travel distance of the carbine bolt makes a slamfire highly unlikely. I am currently using the Tula/Wolf standard primers.

Don

 

[Ifishsum]

Magnum primers can be safely used in just about any load application - as long as you develop the load by starting low and checking for problems. Makes sense to stop a little short of maximum if the data you're using doesn't call for mag primers, but they really don't make that much difference.

What the manuals warn against is substituting a magnum primer for a maximum load and assuming it is still safe. That warning actually applies to substituting just about anything in the load. But if the load was properly started and worked up with a magnum primer, there is nothing unsafe about it.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Magnum primers can be safely used in just about any load application - as long as you develop the load by starting low and checking for problems. Makes sense to stop a little short of maximum if the data you're using doesn't call for mag primers, but they really don't make that much difference.

What the manuals warn against is substituting a magnum primer for a maximum load and assuming it is still safe. That warning actually applies to substituting just about anything in the load. But if the load was properly started and worked up with a magnum primer, there is nothing unsafe about it.

That was stated very wee so I have nothing to add except I agree...