CCW 1860 vs 1858

[Bagheera]

That's not the gun on the picture..
A Webley is harder to find,
Not mantioning it's more expensive..
But yeah as powerful and DA..

 

[ancientnoob]

The gun the picture is a generic picture of a Bulldog- feel free to search the internet for which ever Bulldog you like - many countries made them Webley made them and some made them in Webley calibers, but your welcome.

 

[Bagheera]

Frankly in this thread the main subject is concealed carry
1860 snub VS 1858 snub.
The secondary understated subject is Wich one is best after a cylender conversion, but mainly Wich one is best right out the box.

It seems like 1858 wins.page 2 to 3 were prolific..
With a conversion might be the 1860.

 

[Mr. Standfast]

I would recommend looking at a .36 cal pocket police if you want to carry Black Powder. It is significantly lighter and more compact. Of the two you mentioned, I would go with a Short barrel Colt. I have had too much trouble with the caps wedging in the frame, preventing cylinder rotation, for me to trust the Remington style.
View attachment 779766
from here

I'd agree with this. My Pocket Navy is the factory conversion to ,38 rimfire, with "36 cal" still on the trigger guard taken from the cap and ball parts bin. It is delightfully slim and light, which I think is far more important in a carry gun than length, and its 5½in. barrel would give considerable velocity. It points extremely well, and although I prefer the Army grip to the Navy, the little 1862 one is as good as any which doesn't permit a full three fingers grip. A Remington would be noticeably bulkier than a Colt.

Incidentally I think the .38 rimfire conversion in this size was a bad one, good though the cap and ball version was. The steel is paper-thin over the cylinder notches, and I think burst cylinders probably happened. It was unlikely to be dangerous, and no doubt a replacement cylinder was cheaply available, in the days when they weren't valuable antiques.

There are two factors in a cap fragment jam. One is where the fragments go, and I am sure the Colt is at best equal to the Remington in this respect. The other is the fit of the caps on the nipple, and this can be taken care of with replacement nipples. You can also use a piece of soft rubber or plastic tubing over each one, which should help and also reduces any tendency to moisture absorption.

The Italians have made various fantasy revolvers which never really existed before, such as "Thunderer" style round butts for the cap and ball revolvers, and non-factory barrel lengths, often with no rammer. I think the round butt is the one that is worth having, but it is probably available only in the Nave and Army sizes.

I suppose a lot depends on what sort of carry. France has less than a third the homicide rate of the US, and I think the difference holds up pretty well with knife, hammer and rock in old sock homicide. The disparity is probably much greater in the field of deadly assault on innocent crime victims. So permanent highly concealed carry, as a lifesaver, probably ranks with the portable heart defribillator. Northern Irish undercover practice (not mine but of people I knew, and the IRA had on a list) used to have a carry pistol and a car pistol. That is probably a far more viable option than a spare cylinder, although I don't doubt that a carrying device could be made to protect the caps.

Here is a website in France which I have found extremely good, which has plenty of parts for cap and ball revolvers.

https://www.naturabuy.fr/

https://www.naturabuy.fr/

 

[drobs]

If we're limited to Cap & Ball revolvers - make mine Colt with a 1/4 cent J-Bar conversion:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=107169&d=1521486979

 

[Bagheera]

Well Standfast,Often on there..
Well there are less violence in France? As I ve spent a good third of my life in the States
I d say,yes fortunately there are less murders cause they occur with knives most of times.
Getting crazy tho in London apparently.(theres a political correlation I guess u ve heard whats going on the other side of the ocean but aint the subject)
But it would be a bad day for a group of thugs to assume everyone is in the French culture trip i.e a defensless victim.
Cops are too nice with thugs.
Last year a punk threw(I heard) acid he has in his pocket on a cop in a small town around here.
He didn't even got shot.
He's probably outta jail already by now.
(Cops of LA cops of France nothing to compare except maybe for french SWAT. They rock baby.
Working my way to the army reserve but till then..we ll see.)
Also I d like a society where some punk ass get his life stopped like it happened in Texas that day after the church shooting.thats an exemple when I'm proud I lived there.(well Texas a bit hotter and humid if I remember ; those of u who are single will get it)
No seriously,
Cops can't be here all time everywhere..it wouldn't be a free country otherwise.
I mean i grew up in LA and also few blocks from the bataclan in Paris .
I ve never joked about safety but now more than ever this is getting serious year after year.
i d be insane not to understand
the 2d.
Blablabla..
But back to the revolver,
That 36 isn't what I m interested in, telling you why..
I got a 38 sw da that's at least as powerful as that Colt.(not a whole lot)
I really wanna go back on 44s.
I mean who had a doubt about the 44/45lc stopping power here.
Even instinctively aiming (let's say ur girlfriend s alone at home with ur gun..) this will ruin a bad guy s day..

 

[Bagheera]

If we're limited to Cap & Ball revolvers - make mine Colt with a 1/4 cent J-Bar conversion:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=107169&d=1521486979

Hey what's up Drobs ; )
I ve seen ur video.several times actually,kept it in my saved videos.
If I'm going for a Colt I ll do exactly that.
Thank you for posting.
U Rock Bro.i m sure this used to be done a 100 years ago thus keeping a sort of slick BP tradition,
Pretty cool

Also big up to Franz (@CID)Listz..

 

[drobs]

Hey what's up Drobs ; )
I ve seen ur video.several times actually,kept it in my saved videos.
If I'm going for a Colt I ll do exactly that.
Thank you for posting.
U Rock Bro.i m sure this used to be done a 100 years ago thus keeping a sort of slick BP tradition,
Pretty cool

Also big up to Franz (@CID)Listz..

That's J-Bar's video. Not mine.

 

[Bagheera]

If we're limited to Cap & Ball revolvers - make mine Colt with a 1/4 cent J-Bar conversion:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=107169&d=1521486979

BTW would you say that a full load of BP in the 1860 would shake it too much?
I.e compared to the REM.
Wanna know what you think about that

 

[Bagheera]

That's J-Bar's video. Not mine.

Oh,
Well thank you for posting anyway;
And if he s around bring him on to the thread,I'm still hesitating between these 2 classics..
So is the 1860 s frame solid enough for hot loads ?

 

[drobs]

I shoot a 30gr charge of FFFg black powder in my pair of Pietta 1860 Colts. Over that charge I put a lubed wad and a .454 dia ball.
I mostly use that load because that is what my powder flask nozzle throws.

You can safely load a steel frame Colt chamber all the way full with black powder, cram a ball, on top of the powder and fire it .
You probably won't have the best accuracy though. I will have to try this next time I'm home using a powder measure to see how much I can cram in there.

I also have a 45 Colt Conversion Cylinder. With that I'm careful. The conversion cylinders are only rated for "Cowboy" loadings - not standard pressure or heavy Ruger Only loads. I note that my factory smokeless ammo, feels more violent in the gun. I'm using this 45 Colt ammo:
http://www.acammo.com/index.php/products

 

[bannockburn]

drobs

Thanks for the link to Cowboy Action Ammo. Like the .45 Special load that they have.

 

[Mr. Standfast]

H'm, the homicide figures are all there in the UN Office and Drugs Control statistics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

It is the likelihood of being caught and subjected to due process of law that most deters criminals. There isn't much future in trying to deter habitual major criminals by what can only be a fraction of what they do to each other. Burglars knowing they are pretty safe to turn and run is an asset too.

There used to be a trick of heavily greasing the area in front of the hammer, but that probably just stopped the cap going in far enough to produce a serious jam, and it still had to be cleared before the next shot. The ¼ cent cap rake should work, but I don't like cutting down towards the rotating ratchet. People talk about the brass framed Colts loosening up with regular firing of heavy loads, and I think that means loosening of the threads which hold the axis pin into the frame. That cut looks like putting steel framed ones into the same class. For a revolver that is unlikely to be reloaded in use (Well, it is, isn't it?), I would rather put mu trust in a ring of thin shim steel, fitting around the ratchet and wide enough to cover the rear of the caps.

I don't see any great strength advantage of the Remington over the all-steel Colt. The Remington axis pin doesn't bear any lengthwise load, and there is little if any more metal in the Remington frame than in the Colt axis pin, which may well be stronger steel. Neither in traditional form should fail with any black powder load you can get into the cylinder behind a ball or conical bullet, or any purpose-made black powder substitute I know of. I said "tradititional form" because I'm not quite sure about the exclusively modern .44 chambering in the Navy frame and cylinder. But I suppose the Italians are willing to stake their reputation on them.

Still, if a cap and ball revolver did fail, it would probably take the form of a cylinder blowout. You are almost certain to be unhurt with the Colt, and should require no more than a replacement cylinder. Neither may be the case with anything with a solid topstrap.

If you want a lot of power in a cap and ball revolver to be kept at home, the Colt Dragoon seems like a good choice.

 

[drobs]

Other than a little slicking up, my Colt 1860's are still original. I really don't notice cap jams.
Here's some more ways to reduce / eliminate cap jams:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-open-top-colt-replicas.818497/#post-10497332

The simplest but tedious method is to use cap keepers:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5935286

 

[rodwha]

I shoot a 30gr charge of FFFg black powder in my pair of Pietta 1860 Colts. Over that charge I put a lubed wad and a .454 dia ball.
I mostly use that load because that is what my powder flask nozzle throws.

You can safely load a steel frame Colt chamber all the way full with black powder, cram a ball, on top of the powder and fire it .
You probably won't have the best accuracy though. I will have to try this next time I'm home using a powder measure to see how much I can cram in there.

I also have a 45 Colt Conversion Cylinder. With that I'm careful. The conversion cylinders are only rated for "Cowboy" loadings - not standard pressure or heavy Ruger Only loads. I note that my factory smokeless ammo, feels more violent in the gun. I'm using this 45 Colt ammo:
http://www.acammo.com/index.php/products

View attachment 782460

I’m rather perplexed as to why those very mild cowboy loads would feel violent in comparison. I hadn’t even seen such mild loads as the ones I generally have noticed take a 250-255 bullet and go a bit faster.

 

[Bagheera]

I talked to and red about a surprising number of people who(in the US) carry the Remington without even a conversion, to go fishing, camping,
Or as an EDC.
I was surprised cause it's far away from the Glock;
But here's a sentence I hear them say boldly each time:" I never felt outgunned with my NMA".
knowing it's a 130 to a 220 grs piece of lead flying at 1000 fps,
Even tho not a hallow point in 45 acp,
Anyone could surely understand that very point.

Now I heard someone who carried the avenging angel and besides feeling more natural in the palm,and tho it seems less reliable on data, he said the same.
Matter of fact he said it's easier to draw and cock..

What u think?

 

[drobs]

drobs

Thanks for the link to Cowboy Action Ammo. Like the .45 Special load that they have.

Haven't had any luck finding that 45 Special ammo. Bought their 45 Colt ammo here:
https://www.sgammo.com/product/45-l...lt-200-grain-lead-bullet-american-cowboy-ammo

I plan to reload it with BP.

I’m rather perplexed as to why those very mild cowboy loads would feel violent in comparison. I hadn’t even seen such mild loads as the ones I generally have noticed take a 250-255 bullet and go a bit faster.

Purely subjective. Where BP has no recoil - this cowboy ammo had some felt like I was beating the gun up. Still subjective.

 

[Bagheera]

Also anyone does a wax sealing of the caps ?
I m not sure how this works.
Is it around or on the entire cap ?

 

[damoc]

Also anyone does a wax sealing of the caps ?
I m not sure how this works.
Is it around or on the entire cap ?

Im not sure about wax sealing but there was someone here that was using nail polish on the caps to make more reliable in wet weather
I dont think its needed unless you expect to be going under water.Im sure wax could be used as well all around the outside but too much could affect firing of cap.

 

[Bagheera]

U know I still hesitate..
Everybody talk about a law they would pass on cap n balls repro to 4bid them before May or September.
I gotta make my mind up.
Damoc what u say ?
The + of the 1860 compare to the NMA it's its size..
Rem looks more sturdy tho..really..Also more precise.
If I didn't have a deadline I'd take both, no doubt

 

[bannockburn]

drobs

Thanks for the info! That SG Ammo is a very good price!

 

[Hasaf]

I just want to jump in and say that this conversation has had quite a bit of good information. Particularly the latest section on increasing reliability.

Drobs, thanks for the links. I think I will try the aquarium tubing idea soon and see how well that works at sealing the caps. I normally just pinch the caps; but that does nothing for weather sealing.

 

[rodwha]

Haven't had any luck finding that 45 Special ammo. Bought their 45 Colt ammo here:
https://www.sgammo.com/product/45-l...lt-200-grain-lead-bullet-american-cowboy-ammo

I plan to reload it with BP.



Purely subjective. Where BP has no recoil - this cowboy ammo had some felt like I was beating the gun up. Still subjective.

What powder are you using? I’m not sure I can tell the difference between a 144 grn ball or my 170 or 195 grn bullet with the same charge (weighed ~33 grns of 3F Olde E/T7).

 

[Mr. Standfast]

I just want to jump in and say that this conversation has had quite a bit of good information. Particularly the latest section on increasing reliability.

Drobs, thanks for the links. I think I will try the aquarium tubing idea soon and see how well that works at sealing the caps. I normally just pinch the caps; but that does nothing for weather sealing.

What I've used, on a single-shot rifle, was short lengths of soft rubber tubing which I would call bicycle valve tubing, although that probably dates me. If your caps are deeply grooved, and you want a water seal, you can glue tubing on each one, and it also makes them easier to handle with cold hands. Some silicon rubber and Teflon tubes are pretty strong nowadays, and may reduce the chances of a revolver chainfire.

I am pretty sure someone will sell you something very much like quarter-inch pieces of tubing with an extra zero on the price, if it makes you feel better. There is nothing like a decent profit to keep a man in business.

 

[drobs]

I just want to jump in and say that this conversation has had quite a bit of good information. Particularly the latest section on increasing reliability.

Drobs, thanks for the links. I think I will try the aquarium tubing idea soon and see how well that works at sealing the caps. I normally just pinch the caps; but that does nothing for weather sealing.

There's a fella on ebay that sells pre-cut tubing. Seems like a trip to a hardware store or pet shop (aquariums) would be in order to find the tubing for less. However, you can't fault the guy for making a buck.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Percussion...No-10-and-No-11-caps-Color-BLUE-/141321540211

What powder are you using? I’m not sure I can tell the difference between a 144 grn ball or my 170 or 195 grn bullet with the same charge (weighed ~33 grns of 3F Olde E/T7).

For black powder I'm using Graf's Scheutzen FFFg. I was shooting the cartridge ammo in my older / looser 1860.