CCW 9mm comparison

[crazysccrmd]

I thought I'd share a method I use when looking over options to purchase a new firearm with those who are interested. It's basically just an objective scoring system that evaluates each model on its basic specs. This obviously isn't as important as how the weapon feels/fires for you but an interesting way to see the whole package as it compares to others. I've been looking for a new 9mm concealed carry pistol and decided on my options (firearms I like to shoot/carry) as being the Walther PPS, Walther P99c QA, Glock 26, Keltec P11 and Keltec PF9.

Using an excell spreadsheet you can input each model's weight, height, width, length, capacity, trigger pull and MSRP. Each model then gets a score (1-5 in this case) for the best spec in each line. Since this example is for concealed carry lightweight, overall dimensions, etc factor in as the higher score (5s) and so on. This outputs a value as follows:

P99c QA 18pts (5pts in mag cap)
PPS 20pts (no winning categories)
G26 24pts (5pts in height and mag cap)
P11 28pts (5pts in length, mag cap, and msrp)
PF9 32pts (5pts in weight, width, trigger pull (lbs), msrp)

It's obviously not a 100% solution, but in a way it shows you what you are getting for your money in terms of features you desire.

 

[Jbabbler]

PF9 will win all of these until "quality of build", "fit/finish" and "reliability" are thrown in to the mix. If you add "features" to the mix and the ever-subjective "shootability" the scoring system changes drastically as well. I would personally factor in warranty, defect rate, past experience and platform knowledge or cross compatibility, parts availability, holster and accessory availability, etc.....

To me if you add those items in you end up with a matched set G26/G19, Sig P239/P226, 3913/5906, etc...

 

[chrisb507]

I've done similar little tools....I always tweak mine by adjusting the variables that are most important. If capacity is the most important thing, I would multiply that score by two in the total, for example. So you have a weighted total based on your priorities on what is critical to you.

I find stuff like this useful to eliminate some choices. It gives me an excuse to do a ton of research. But I find the all-important "personal preference/feel/comfort" is hard to objectively score.

 

[hardluk1]

I have a glock 27, just got a 9mm conversion barrel for it also. I have a kahr cw9 and just sold a P-11. I carry a pf-9 ever day. Carrys well, shoot well, hit poa and is lite. Other can't do all of that as well. Glock has by far the best trigger but for me is a wide heavy chunk to carry.

 

[2WheelsGood]

There may be some value in your method to narrow it down to your top five, but there are still so many other less tangible factors that your list doesn't include. Imagine buying a car using that method. You'd almost certainly end up with a Hyundai.

 

[IdahoLT1]

Id imagine the score would change if you had the 1-5 point system be based on the relative rank. Ex. MSRP, the best MSRP or #1 rank gets 5 points, the next 4 points, the next 3 point and so on.

 

[Pilot]

Very interesting. I am considering a few of these for summer carry. Again, the G26 gets high marks. I am surprised the PPS didn't win in slimness. One of the Kahrs must have beat it out.

 

[Jbabbler]

Very interesting. I am considering a few of these for summer carry. Again, the G26 gets high marks. I am surprised the PPS didn't win in slimness. One of the Kahrs must have beat it out.

Believe it or not my 3913 is as slim as any Kahr. I carry it in a Kahr P9 holster.

 

[group17]

I have a glock 27, just got a 9mm conversion barrel for it also. I have a kahr cw9 and just sold a P-11. I carry a pf-9 ever day. Carrys well, shoot well, hit poa and is lite. Other can't do all of that as well. Glock has by far the best trigger but for me is a wide heavy chunk to carry.

Have you shot the 99c/AS trigger? I find it much nicer then my Glock 27 trigger.

 

[Jbabbler]

The only thing holding me back from the P99 is the mag release. I had that on my PPS and hated it.

 

[crazysccrmd]

Id imagine the score would change if you had the 1-5 point system be based on the relative rank. Ex. MSRP, the best MSRP or #1 rank gets 5 points, the next 4 points, the next 3 point and so on.

That's how it was setup pretty much. Lowest MSRP = 5pts, lightest weight = 5pts, lowest lb trigger pull = 5pts, etc. For ties both received 5pts. I agree the system doesn't really figure in longterm reliability and many other subjective factors such as shooting enjoyment.

The only thing holding me back from the P99 is the mag release. I had that on my PPS and hated it.

You don't like the paddle release on the trigger guard? I love it, eliminates the chance of accidentally hitting the mag release while it's holster tight to your body. It took some getting used to but learning to tap it with your middle finger of your firing hand isn't too bad.

 

[rellascout]

That's how it was setup pretty much. Lowest MSRP = 5pts, lightest weight = 5pts, lowest lb trigger pull = 5pts, etc. For ties both received 5pts. I agree the system doesn't really figure in longterm reliability and many other subjective factors such as shooting enjoyment.

MSRP is meaningless IMHO. Look at Kahr for example. CW9 lists at $549 but sells for under $400. In fact these days it sells for under $375.

Also you assume that the lowest lb pull = the best. In a defensive pistol smoothness and cleanness & consitency of the break are more important. I will take a 6lb pull that is reliable and smooth over a 4lb which is mushy.

Weight is another factor which could go either way. Heavier is better for recoil but not as nice to carry. Some of the pocket rocket 9mms are simply too small to shoot more than 50 rounds through a session so what you consider to be an advantage might be a disadvantage.

Size is yet another "subjective" factor. I was looking at the Kahr PM9 but ended up with a CW9 because of the cost and the fact I can get my whole hand on the CW9 grip. I cannot do this with the PM9 so it being smaller is not an advantage. YMMV

Thanks for the effort but this is far from objective. You are using subjective criteria in an atttmpt to establish something objective. Compling the data is cool but the end score is far from objective. It is in fact completely subjective based on your criteria which might not match up with mine.

 

[2WheelsGood]

The only thing holding me back from the P99 is the mag release. I had that on my PPS and hated it.

I absolutely love the mag release on the Walthers. Sure, if you're not used to it, it feels odd. But really, it's extremely natural; you barely need to move your finger (I use my middle finger) to drop the mag. And it's darn near impossible to release a mag accidentally.

 

[crazysccrmd]

Thanks for the effort but this is far from objective. You are using subjective criteria in an atttmpt to establish something objective. Compling the data is cool but the end score is far from objective. It is in fact completely subjective based on your criteria which might not match up with mine.

Good point. I guess you could call it a 'subjective' objective analysis...if that makes sense. You decide what factors are important (low/high weight, size, etc) and then score based off that. For me smaller is better, I have piano player hands not meathooks, I can easily fit a full two fingers on my P3AT and shoot comfortably.

 

[rellascout]

Good point. I guess you could call it a 'subjective' objective analysis...if that makes sense. You decide what factors are important (low/high weight, size, etc) and then score based off that. For me smaller is better, I have piano player hands not meathooks, I can easily fit a full two fingers on my P3AT and shoot comfortably.

I hear you... It would be useful for the person filling it out to choose the criteria and weigh them according to their preference. So you have something that will spit out data base on your own personal subjective material.

 

[hardluk1]

I own a kahr cw=9 It is not as thin as a kt pf-9 and no where near is light but the extra weight does help with group control fireing fast. Kahr cw 9 is .903 to .905 wide and 4.366 high and 6.100 long at the slide. The KT is.879 wide and 4.253 high and 5.883 long. Big difference is weight with the kahr being 5.5oz heavierthan the 12.7oz kt. Both are 7+1 on round count but the has a mag that will hold one more round.

Took my glock 27 out today with the 9mm conversion barrel useing the 40s&w mags . Man what a difference in gun control and fast accurate follow up shots. Mags worked well for practice too. Very pleased. Makes that pistol fun to shot and groups are way tighter. Shoots way better than either the kt or kahr but it is still a thick gun an heavier pistol. Got to get a couple model 26 mags now.

 

[Jbabbler]

 

[Pilot]

I know many like them, but I just can't shoot the 3913 well, so I sold mine many years ago.

Right now in a small 9MM I am waffling between a 3rd gen G26 or PPS. I am leaning towards the PPS due to slimness.

 

[2WheelsGood]

I am leaning towards the PPS due to slimness.

Have you shot one? I think after you do, you'll buy it for sure.

 

[Jbabbler]

Do some research before you buy a PPS. Lots of documented reliability issues and QC problems with them.

 

[2WheelsGood]

Do some research before you buy a PPS. Lots of documented reliability issues and QC problems with them.

Lots? Define "lots". Documented? Where?

 

[Pilot]

I have heard nothing but positives on the PPS. Do you have any documentation on reliability?

I have not yet shot one, but may see if I can rent one. A freind of mine who works at a gun store shot one and really liked it. He is getting one in .40, although I am sticking to 9MM. I know it will probably be handful to shoot, but I am not lloking for a range gun, just a small, light carry piece that I can hit what I aim at at relatively short distances.

 

[2WheelsGood]

I know it will probably be handful to shoot

It's surprisingly not. I have a Ruger LCP, and I think the most I've ever put through it in one day is about 50 rounds. That gun just hurts. But I can shoot my PPS all day long. Some trips to the range, it's the only gun I shoot.

 

[Jbabbler]

I purchased my PPS 40 with the intent to carry it in the summer. When I got it home I was excited. It felt like a thin Glock 19. The trigger was very Glock-like and the backstraps were a neat addition. That's where the love ended.

The next day I went shooting with a firearms instructor friend of mine. He owns a school that trains police officers and other LEO. When I pulled the gun out with pride he gasped and said that I had purchased "the plague". I told him he was crazy then proceeded to have an abysmal day of FTE's and failures to go in to battery. It wouldn't go in to battery 25% of the time with any ammo I tried and with 3 different shooters. When it did work the mag-to-grip junction pinched the hell out of my hand when I shot.

We got to talking about it and he said that the guns were "jinxed". He told me that he has literally had dozens fail in classes he was teaching. He said he has seen extractors shoot off on several and that several others have had issues with the slide seizing up to where they had to take them apart with a rubber mallet. He said that the 9mm version chokes on 147gr badly and that on a few guns he has seen the backstraps pop off and render the gun inoperable. He has written letters for them to S&W to attest to the problems. I shot few magazines and everything was fine. Then I popped in a new mag and the gun wouldn't fire. After a quick check I found that the backstrap was not locked in any more. I found that odd, locked it down and shot another mag. The next mag... same problem. When I changed the backstrap it was fine. While I know that this was a simple issue with the backstrap I do not like that the entire gun was disabled because of a small, plastic tab that broke.

Its really a shame because I love the Glock-like trigger and the thin profile but after the failures I had today I would never trust it.

After a few hrs of screwing around with mine I put it away and shot something else. When I got home I found several threads on the Walther forum and on the PPS forum outlining the issues and I seemed to be having every issue listed.

This thread has a lot of the common issues listed.
This thread from PPStalk actually asks "Who hasn't had there Slide stop spring break?"

The most frequent issue seems to be Premature Slide Lock. In fact, the owner of PPStalk purchased a new PPS 9mm and it locked up tight on him on his first range trip and had to be sent back.

I'm not saying the gun isn't nice. Hell, I want mine to be everything it was on paper. The truth is, mine was unreliable and many others have had similar problems. If things change I will be first in line to get a new one. It shot that good (when it worked). I would have to use a Hogue grip though as I do not and will not trust the backstrap "safety disconnect" to stay put ever again.

 

[jbr]

if you are considering a pf9 you owe it to yourself to try the pt709 ya gotta shoot one to believe it