CCW in the air

[neoncowboy]

I don't see why the right to self-defense and to arms should somehow be restricted on an airplane, or at a train station, or in the courthouse or at the post office...or anywhere.

We either have the right and have a gov't that respects the right...or we don't.

Personally, I hate airline travel and avoid it whenever possible. I fly myself most of the trips I do and carry at least one gun on me at all times (along with a surefire and a whole bunch of knives

 

[outofbattery]

Color me blissninny:I'm not in favor of allowing non-LEO CCW on airlines.Anything that doesn't fall from the sky and I'm fine with.I'm sure that many non-conventional weapons have found their way aboard aircraft since 9/11:Blackie Collins letter openers,polymer OSS lapel thumb-daggers and so on but the chances of a terrorist being able to bring a firearm on are slim enough for me to say that allowing CCW would increase the possibility of it happening.Furthermore, there are going to be a majority of flights with people choosing to not CCW just as in any random sample of travellers as face it,those that carry daily are in the small minority of Americans.Any group of terrorists that think they could strongarm a flight with boxcutters or their alternatives like they did on 9/11 are going to be sadly mistaken that the people won't find a will and a way to fight them-and win.

 

[michaelbane]

The deterrence effect

...the chances of a terrorist being able to bring a firearm on are slim enough for me to say that allowing CCW would increase the possibility of it happening. Furthermore, there are going to be a majority of flights with people choosing to not CCW just as in any random sample of travellers as face it,those that carry daily are in the small minority of Americans.

If I understand this right, the point being made is that if we allow CCW, then the terrorists will take advantage of it as well. But John Lott's study shows that with regular CCW, that is not the case. Criminals did not respond by better arming themselves; the rate of violent crime decreased. It's not unreasonable to predict a similar result on airplanes.

 

[only1asterisk]

CCW on planes? When pigs fly!

(take it however you like, it's true)

David

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Take a close look at the American mentality as a people we question authority too much, I would not want any average Joe carrying on a plane. The Swiss Army reserve carry their automatic rifles home on a train by themselves, (I have seen that personally) but I cannot imagine any of our reserves doing the same here in this country. Yes I am sure that the vast majority of us are decent, hard working, pull yourself up by your bootstraps type of people. But there are those who question authority and have no respect and challenge authority in this country. We should not carry on airplanes for simple reason of a few bad Apples.

 

[SMMAssociates]

Take a close look at the American mentality as a people we question authority too much, I would not want any average Joe carrying on a plane. The Swiss Army reserve carry their automatic rifles home on a train by themselves, (I have seen that personally) but I cannot imagine any of our reserves doing the same here in this country. Yes I am sure that the vast majority of us are decent, hard working, pull yourself up by your bootstraps type of people. But there are those who question authority and have no respect and challenge authority in this country. We should not carry on airplanes for simple reason of a few bad Apples.

Hate to say this, but maybe a troll?

This is one of the number one arguments the anti's have against any form of "civilian" weapon ownership, use, or carry.

The idea that if somebody might do something bad with some inanimate object, nobody should be able to have one....

Nonsense....

I expect you also believe that a "no guns" sign will keep an armed criminal out of my kid's school room, too....

Sheesh....

 

[Richard.Howe]

Very bad idea that sounds nice in theory.

 

[Zundfolge]

Take a close look at the American mentality...We should not carry on airplanes for simple reason of a few bad Apples.

and

Very bad idea that sounds nice in theory.

So let me get this straight.

I can be trusted to walk down the street packing a gun.
I can be trusted walking into a convenience store packing a gun.
I can be trusted walking into a bank packing a gun.
I can be trusted walking into a liquor store packing a gun.
But put me on an airplane and all of the sudden I'm going to become a rampaging maniac?


If the state trusts me enough to pack anywhere they should trust me to pack everywhere. Period. Anything less is asinine.

 

[Richard.Howe]

...all of the sudden I'm going to become a rampaging maniac?

No, not you!

Or me, for that matter. If I've had my morning coffee, that is.

A few things happen all at the same time on an airplane:
1. High number of bystanders
2. High density of bystanders
3. High consequence of mistakes -- maybe a bit higher than in a liquor store? Well, not if the store is filled with 200 people and flying at 38,000 feet I suppose...wonder if it gets cold up there?

All that having been said, if there were no CCW on aircraft and a terrorist situation arose over US skies, then the plane will be going down anyway at the gentle suggestion of a Sidewinder.

I just know that I wouldn't be completely comfortable in an aircraft that contained someone with all the shooting skills necessary to fill out a 1-page application.

Remember, not all bad aircraft CCW scenarios involve terrorists. They might just involve a negligent discharge. I dare say that a few more NDs occur than do acts of domestic terrorism. That's the risk balance you have to at least consider.

I don't worry when CCW holders are right next to me in line at the grocery store though...perhaps because they could screw up in a hundred ways and I still get to go home afterward.

Rich


By the way --

If the state trusts me enough to pack anywhere they should trust me to pack everywhere. Period. Anything less is asinine.

Like Federal court? Like prison? I don't buy that argument.

 

[lucky_fool]

Why can you protect your life in a car, bus, and a building but by God your life is worthless in a plane.

Not if the bus is a Greyhound.

 

[xd9fan]

I have more "Rights" in my house than my car.....on the ground than in the air. WHY??? Is my family less valuable?? Is yours?? If somebody is worried that God forbid a bullet goes through the plane....My position is if their are terrorists on broad....the last concern I have is my bullets maybe going through the plane......My worry is trying to kill the terrorist to SAVE the plane.
But no we cant protect ourselves and 3000 die because we are all unarmed and boxcutters are used.

If conceal carry works on the ground...it will work in the air. Its a matter of trust and Control......our Govt does not trust us to protect our own lives.
This ties into the problem with the war on terror only being fought by the Govt and the Govt giving us a stupid rainbow danger color scale. But then I want an armed citizenary, Armed (too the teeth) Neutrality, and a swiss like militia...and the National Guard to never step foot on foregn soil.....The Bill of Rights taught in schools ....etc etc

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

I have more "Rights" in my house than my car.....on the ground than in the air. WHY??? Is my family less valuable?? Is yours?? If somebody is worried that God forbid a bullet goes through the plane....My position is if their are terrorists on broad....the last concern I have is my bullets maybe going through the plane......My worry is trying to kill the terrorist to SAVE the plane.
But no we cant protect ourselves and 3000 die because we are all unarmed and boxcutters are used.


If conceal carry works on the ground...it will work in the air. Its a matter of trust and Control......our Govt does not trust us to protect our own lives.
This ties into the problem with the war on terror only being fought by the Govt and the Govt giving us a stupid rainbow danger color scale. But then I want an armed citizenary, Armed (too the teeth) Neutrality, and a swiss like militia...and the National Guard to never step foot on foregn soil.....The Bill of Rights taught in schools ....etc etc

What are the statistics of someone dying on a plane? 1000 per year? I am a firm believer of CCW on a plane but not just anyone. LEOs? Retired LEOs? anyway you get the point of what I am trying to say. Not the general public on a Jet Airplane.

 

[Flyboy]

But there are those who question authority and have no respect and challenge authority in this country. We should not carry on airplanes for simple reason of a few bad Apples.

Funny enough, these tend to be the people whom I trust the most.

--Flyboy, who doesn't board an airplane unarmed. Row 0 has its privileges.

 

[xd9fan]

What are the statistics of someone dying on a plane? 1000 per year? I am a firm believer of CCW on a plane but not just anyone. LEOs? Retired LEOs? anyway you get the point of what I am trying to say. Not the general public on a Jet Airplane.

This thinking, while you think is logical, is elitist. My line of thinking is the same reason why we have juries made of our peers and not of Govt "officals" I trust the common family man more than just another govt suit with way too much ego to fill that suit. (based on most of my experiences with them anyway)

The focus should be "we the people" first then Govt taking a second seat. Having just "law enforcement" rather then us have the say or power and still walking around thinking we are a free people is denial.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

This thinking, while you think is logical, is elitist. My line of thinking is the same reason why we have juries made of our peers and not of Govt "officals" I trust the common family man more than just another govt suit with way too much ego to fill that suit. (based on most of my experiences with them anyway)

So let me ask you one question? Who gave you your CCW? your local Sheriff or Police Department? I got mine from my local Sheriff Department. Just who should issue CCW for the Airlines? Everybodys Sheriff or Police Department? Local law applies in the sky? Who gets to issue sky CCW permits. CCW issuance better be stringent and not by any Police jurisdiction and not shall be issued to just anyone. Could you imagine just one gunfight among 200 or more sardine packed passengers seven miles in the air flying 450 miles an hour? That would be more than enough to feed the beast of any antigun group and give them merit. Feinstein, Kerry, Kennedy and the Brady bunch would set into place more laws than we all would care for. One gunfight would overshadow any terrist or potential terrist act in the sky. I am not sure if pilots are allowed to be armed or not I've never looked into it, all that I know about that subject is that it caused a heck of a stink on Capitol hill. CCW on an Airline is not for the average Joe. I believe that there should be a way to CCW the friendly skies but your way of thinking isn't in the best interest of all concerned. I share your concern that dutiful citizens should bear the responsibility of protection so my thinking is not as elitist as you might want to think.
What kind of criteria do you believe should be selective in whether you should be able to CCW aboard an airliner? Some? None? Active Federal Law Enforcement Officer? Active Military? Retired Military? Should you go through a battery of tests?
Air Marshals, how effective are they? Can the goveronment hire more? If not why not? How do they train those they qualify?......

 

[xd9fan]

sorry your talking to someone who thinks the 2ndA means what it says and as far as Conceal carry goes....every state should have the Vermont Carry as standard. I will be the first to admit that asking Govt for a permit is NOT freedom. At least the Shall issue laws take the KING/GOD complex out of law enforcements heads.

 

[michaelbane]

I'll tell you who would issue "sky CCW permits"

Just who should issue CCW for the Airlines? Everybodys Sheriff or Police Department? Local law applies in the sky? Who gets to issue sky CCW permits. CCW issuance better be stringent and not by any Police jurisdiction and not shall be issued to just anyone.

What kind of criteria do you believe should be selective in whether you should be able to CCW aboard an airliner? Some? None? Active Federal Law Enforcement Officer? Active Military? Retired Military? Should you go through a battery of tests?

The permit would be "shall issue", administered by the TSA. You would go to your local airport for fingerprinting, background check and associated paperwork. You would have to provide certification from an approved instructor that you took a "sky CCW" course. The course would include a final exam of live fire that included drawing from concealment, in both a standing and seated position, and firing two shots into the innermost ring of an NRA pistol target. All within two seconds at at least fifteeen feet.

One more thing. The "sky CCW" permit would preempt state and local laws. In other words, if you live in California or New York or some place where they don't issue CCW permits, the "sky CCW" permit allows you to carry concealed when the permit holder is travelling to and from the airport.

 

[Kodiaz]

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Shall not be infringed. Begging the sheriff for a CCW is an infringement. Assault weapon bans are an infringement. X waiting day periods are an infringement. Special stamps for short rifles, suppressors auto fire are infringements.

They go on and on and on.

Anything that restores our GOD given rights will cause a stink on capitol hill. Those usurpers dream of the day when we are like Britain and have to bend over every time they say so.

I can sit here and get arthritis from pulling up articles of every time some LEO at any level screwed the pooch with a gun. Please for the sake of my patience don't ask me when a fed LEO screwed up. Please

 

[Herself]

Take a close look at the American mentality as a people we question authority too much,

I had no idea that a civilian, on his or her own time, could possibly question authority too much!
There's no requirement to salute cops or private security or self-appointed sidewalk suprintendants.
And what's that got to do with carrying on an airplane?
How many Range Officers at private/public gun ranges get shot? "Accepting discipline" is not the same as "accepting authority unquestioningly!"

I would not want any average Joe carrying on a plane.

Even though the "average Jihadiin" just might be?

The Swiss Army reserve carry their automatic rifles home on a train by themselves, (I have seen that personally) but I cannot imagine any of our reserves doing the same here in this country.

Because, unlike the stolid and hardy Swiss, our reservists are drunken slackers who won't obey orders? Maaaan, that's sad news. When are you emigrating?

Yes I am sure that the vast majority of us are decent, hard working, pull yourself up by your bootstraps type of people. But there are those who question authority and have no respect and challenge authority in this country. We should not carry on airplanes for simple reason of a few bad Apples.

So, because some people are bad 'uns, there shouldn't be CCW on airplanes? Funny, since the fact that some folks choose evil is why I started carrying a gun!

Doesn't make any difference. Next bunch that stands up in a U. S. plane and try hijacking it are going down. If they've got guns, they may get an escort into the next life, but they're not getting control of the plane.

C'mon -- I'd leap at 'em, you would, too. Do you think we're the only ones? Kids, the elderly and mothers with children excepted, most people will count the risk of confronting a hijacker small compared to the possible harm from not confronting one! I wasn't planning on getting out of this life alive anyway. Armed or not, let's roll!

--Herself

 

[Herself]

Funny enough, these tend to be the people whom I trust the most.

Me, too!

--Flyboy, who doesn't board an airplane unarmed. Row 0 has its privileges.

Cheater!
...You get to be "first on the scene," too. Locomotive engineers raised quite a stink when they designed engines with the control cab at the front. That's how we know pi-luts got nerves of steel.

Just tell me it ain't a Warthog.

--H

 

[Kodiaz]

Herself you are absolutely wrong as I matter of fact, the next time I see a house burning unarmed wife shooting Bureau of Arson, Terror and Federal Excess officer I am going to bow.

Great post by the way.


One moment what is wrong with the venerable warthog???

 

[Herself]

Herself you are absolutely wrong

And this is news? This's the Internet, where everyone is always wrong, all the time! Gotta love it!

Besides, how dare you question me? I'm an authority, it says so right here on my pajamas.

One moment what is wrong with the venerable warthog???

Is is broke? I swear I wasn't messin' with it!

'Twas a bit of badinage. For many of us, they're sufferin' difficult to keep a good grip on when they're barkin', so the fellow who is comfortable enough with one to fly with it must be A Major Hombre!

Yummm, pi-luts. Airplanes. Private citizens flyin' planes while carryin' guns... Ooops. Married. Forgot. :blush:

--H

 

[gunsmith]

I am a civillian and I have a "sky permit" here it is

THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED

 

[xd9fan]

Take a close look at the American mentality as a people we question authority too much, I would not want any average Joe carrying on a plane. The Swiss Army reserve carry their automatic rifles home on a train by themselves, (I have seen that personally) but I cannot imagine any of our reserves doing the same here in this country. Yes I am sure that the vast majority of us are decent, hard working, pull yourself up by your bootstraps type of people. But there are those who question authority and have no respect and challenge authority in this country. We should not carry on airplanes for simple reason of a few bad Apples.

I for one thank God we still have americans that question authority!! The term goose-stepping morons...comes to mind for those that dont ever question authority. I think americans DONT questoin authority enough. They are just sheeple to do as they are told.

Your last statement of this paragraph is very anti-gun. and could be used (quite easily) against you. Once again the old having bad people's actions control the Rights of the law-abidding. (a$$ backwards)

"But to ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow. ... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding."
--Jeff Snyder


I pay too much in taxes, raise 3 boys, married, professional, SUV owner, NRA,GOA life member, My wife and I have Social Security accounts we will never see (but we do see the taxes go out every 2 weeks), we have to budget, (but the Govt...libs or GOP spend like a drunken sailor...every year)

and you wonder why authority is questioned???????? God I wish authority was qeustioned more. The Boston Tea party was over a 2% tax hike. But I have Al gore (govt=authority) telling me that letting me have 2% control over my Social security money is a "risky scheme"

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Herself Allow me to ask you a few questons if I may. Have you been to Switzerland? Have you been in the United States Army? Have you been in the Army for enough time to distinguish any type of differences within the two major cultures observed. How about subcultures within the U.S Army? I have known a soldier who went home on leave and committed an armed robbery at a liquer store and never reported to back to duty (went to jail). What about the Fort Carson soldiers who went to Denver and robbed the MacDonalds there and got convicted. What about (Gangsta) soldiers who purposefully enter the U.S Army to learn tactics only to get out and go back to the gangs where they come from. The Military stopped allowing People from enlisting with certain tatoos just for this reason. These are but a few facts going on in today's service. Shootings have gone on at Army bases. Small wonder leadership will never let soldiers carry their M16s home. Face the facts and call a spade a spade, sometimes the truth hurts. I am not emigrating anywhere. Pull your head out of the sand for once and look around.