CCW knives as a deterrant?

[yy]

I'd like to ponder more on the use of CCW knives and handguns. And I didn't want to hijack the CCW knife thread.


One school of thought suggests that their students should get a sizable folding knife, learn how to open it well, and use it to deter would-be robbers and rapists. Please note that this particular school was pitching to university staff and faculty at a Florida school. Their students are women and (somehow) presumed to be either uncomfortable with handguns or lack proficiency with handguns or knives.

On the face of it, the knife deterrent sounds good. The potential victim is displaying some proficiency in a knife but is really showing resolve. The message is, "go elsewhere, I'm not going to be your victim today." This may be a decent tactic to deter the majority of petty criminals looking for an easy prey.

I'd like to hear your thoughts. I subscribe more to the school of thought as John so succinctly state: the knife should not be seen. This strategy isn't looking for a display to deter a criminal. A better deterrant should be a projected "don't even think about it" and a determined criminal ignores that message at its own peril. Because that knife is used to end a deadly threat.

Then again, I'm 200 lbs, 5'7", and usually condition yellow.

So a better question is: what's a better use of knife for my 100 lbs 5'1" wife who spends more time in condition white? Or better yet, what should an instructor teach to prepare her?

 

[Kingcreek]

Or better yet, what should an instructor teach to prepare her?

awareness

 

[yy]

do you mean to train awareness as a replacement for teaching knife-display deterrance (spell?)?

 

[RS3RS]

I don't know... Except for extreme situations, if a situation calls for the use of deadly force (which a knife would pretty much be), I think I'd feel more comfortable using a firearm as a deterrant.

 

[tellner]

I will quote the two most wisest pieces of advice I ever got from my first Silat teacher (who I hope to see posting here soon):

1) The most important thing is knowing when the fight has started

2) Never let your mouth write a check that your ass can't cash.

Carrying a knife or gun to wave around and scare the Bad People will not do you any good at all. If your mindset is "I'll just pull it out and display it. The Bad People will be scared and run away," you won't know what to do if your Magic Talisman fails, and you probably won't convince them that they are in any danger from you.

If you want it to work as a deterrent you have to be prepared to shoot him until the slide locks back on your last empty magazine or cut and stab him until they have to do a second autopsy to figure out exactly what got killed. No sane firearms instructor would say "I'm just going to teach you to pull out the gun and show it to the bad guy. You don't need to know when or how to shoot. Just the display will be enough."

"Awareness" is great. If you don't notice it you can't deal with it. Just saying "Be aware" isn't enough. The first thing is that very few people have any clear notion about what they're talking about. What's "aware"? Does it mean you don't actually run into lamp-posts? Awareness of bad intention in others and their readiness to hurt you is crucially important. Teaching it is not all that easy. One of the best ways is training that gets The Lizard up and about. If you are in touch with the capacity for aggression and determined physical action in yourself you are more likely to recognize it in others.

 

[scbair]

I did actually use my folding knife as a deterrent, once, many years ago. Without going into the boring details, I was targeted by a 3-man team of muggers, saw them approaching (and had absolutely no doubt I was their intended victim) and prepared to die like a man!

I backed into a corner, limiting the directions from which they could approach me, held my clipboard in front of me with my left hand (only "shield" I could find . . .), and drew my folder with my right hand. I crouched, held the knife low, and readied myself to at least enable the police to find one or more of the assailants at the hospital ER or morgue!

Strangest thing . . . they couldn't reach an agreement as to who should have the fhonor of attacking me first! After some whispered discussion, they walked away, muttering (and I quickly made my way to a phone to alert the police to this "crime lookin' for a place to happen").

Now, the deterrent effect worked due to two elements:
1) Awareness (I saw them approaching and recognized the signs of a mugging-in-progress, in time to assume a defensive posture); and
2) I was NOT bluffing. I figured I was a goner (I'm no Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris ), and my whole focus was on doing as much damage as possible to anything that came within reach.

To plan on displaying a weapon (any weapon) as a deterrent, only, is suicidal.

 

[hso]

On the face of it, the knife deterrent sounds good.

No

If the bad guy happens to be deterred, great. The objective is to not have to fight and risk getting maimed or killed (the art of fighting without fighting ), but you do NOT start out with the idea that you will brandish a deadly weapon as your means of defense.

A knife requires intense determination to use. It requires a level of personal commitment beyond what most people are willing to put into it. If the BG isn't convinced that you're ready to actually use the knife and you're just brandishing it without that commitment it can get you killed.

 

[tellner]

hso writes:

If the bad guy happens to be deterred, great. The objective is to not have to fight and risk getting maimed or killed (the art of fighting without fighting ), but you do NOT start out with the idea that you will brandish a deadly weapon as your means of defense.

The objective is not "to not have to fight". The objective is to survive. Doing it without fighting is an unlooked-for happy outcome, not the goal you should be bending all your efforts towards.

 

[hso]

Tellner,

Just to clarify -

Our goal should be to survive without injury.

If I run away from a fight I survive by not fighting. If I "invite" the guy outside and close the door and call the cops I survive without fighting. If I get into my car and drive off while he tosses curb stones and epithets I survive without fighting.

If I have no other choice but to fight to survive everything is thrown into that combat. My whole will and effort with absolute ruthless disregard for my attacker.

I've had 3 violent street encounters. None of them were "fights". I was attacked without provocation in each. Only one provided the opportunity to survive without fighting and I talked my way out but was prepared to fight. I could not avoid, finesse or flee from the other 2 and did fight to survive.

 

[tellner]

You're preaching to the choir, hso, especially the part about the difference between self defense and fighting. It's a standard part of the first class of every WSD course we teach.

 

[c_yeager]

Not many people have the will to plunge a knife into a person, thats not a thing you want to find out when your about to get killed/raped etc. Im not saying you should have your wife go out and stab someone, but make sure that she reflects on the notion a bit and feels that its something she could do.

 

[swampdog]

"If you pull a gun on a man, you damn sure better be ready to pull the trigger" goes double for a knife. If she's going to carry it she ought to be able to use it. I'd say it's a tragedy waiting to happen. She'd be better off with something else.

I had a guy pull a small folder on me outside of a pool hall one night. He waved it around talking trash until I kicked it out of his hand. He'd obviously not had any training in the proper use of a blade or I wouldn't have tried it. The look on his face was priceless as the knife sailed through the air.

As has been mentioned here before, I don't think your enemy should see the blade until it's sticking in him. Brandishing one as a deterrent kind of defeats the purpose, not to mention it kicks some people into combat mode.

Whatever you decide, make sure she has the will to actually use it and the training to use it effectively.

 

[hso]

If she "can't" get mad and stay in control instead of falling apart in fear then it may be best to invest in a good pair of running shoes for her. Of course if she's in condition white all the time nothing much will help because she won't get the chance to use it.

Isn't there anyone that she'd fight to the death to protect? The lioness protecting her pride or cubs? Her aged mother being raped? Kids she'd protect. She has to have the right mentality.

My wife is in 'white' all the time, but she get's MAD fast and she doesn't lock up in crisis. When she's angry she's ruthless and singleminded and I would be afraid of her myself. Because of her mindset there are ways to tailor to her.

Perhaps a small neck knife that she could resort to after she's jumped. Hands to throat, pull neck knife, carve and run. If it's going to take that to focus her then prepare for that condition and look for trainers that will focus on that.

 

[half elf]

IMNSHO if you use a knife properly the target does not get to see it. The shiv is intended for cutting not flashing, and should be used as such, I feel the knife is a suitable CCW tool, but not as a deterent, by waving it about, but by cutting quick, deep, and wide.

 

[Soap]

Assume nothing is a deterrent. Get over the concept and start training hard.

 

[JShirley]

Hah!

And you win my "best post for the day, and probably week" award.

John

 

[akluvr]

Mr. Flory just reached god-like status for that post. Possibly one of the most sensible posts I've read yet. Ever. That belongs on a t-shirt, maybe even a tattoo.

 

[Boats]

It is always difficult to criticize trainin' hard because, to many, their drills or katas or routines, or whatever, instill in them a peculiar overconfidence and arrogance they often cannot identify, or refuse to admit to even if they see the potential for complacency.

IRL, I have seen, "despite such being what ya fall back on" training fail to do precisely what it was designed to do, whether one is talking about getting covered by someone else's muzzle on the fortieth clearing drill, or getting in over their heads thinking they can handle something that looks like some other drill they had once. After a few years in aikido it was painfully obvious that it mostly worked via partner cooperation and that most MA's, just like in UFC or other such "realistic" contests, don't do much when that cooperative sparring environment is gone. Almost all fights I have ever participated in or witnessed wound up on the ground and were brutally chaotic, no matter what the relative training or coolheadedness of the respective combatants was thought to be ahead of time.

IOW, training is great, but it definitely has limits and diminishing returns. I have seen well trained individuals perform various tasks worse than relative novices during the real deal, especially in firefighting. Extreme stress is what it is no matter the circumstances by which one finds his or another's life on the line. Some exceed expectations, many perform at least adequately, some freeze or oterwise turn in marginal efforts, and sometimes the lightly trained or untrained rise to the challenge best of all, usually because they are unencumbered by the "wrong" experience or a novel situation is easier for them to deal with because their personal "book" isn't too thick to think of some tactic that is not in it yet. During live "flooding drills" in the Navy, many times leaks were contained by people not overly burdened by doctrine because they used approaches that "weren't supposed to work." Of course a lack of training in such "live fire" more often bordered on the comedic, which is why we trained in the first place--it was better than nothing and showed us what we fundamentally didn't know. The truth remained that training would never be a substitute for actual experience.

Just because one might study FMA, or go find and develop a "warrior mindset," such training doesn't even come close to guaranteeing they are better able to stab someone than an untrained woman cornered in an alley.

So again, I am not saying training is without its uses, but please don't offer it up as some sort of cure-all either--because it isn't. In many cases, seeing if one is prepared to take a life might be better answered by one sucessful deer or elk hunt with hands on field dressing, than by a decade of shooting steel plates and studying pencak silat during one's free time.

 

[yy]

by hso:

My wife is in 'white' all the time,

check

but she get's MAD fast

CHECK

and she doesn't lock up in crisis

. NEEDS work.


--applause--
well said, Daniel.
--applause--



HOw about if I modify the discussion a little:

One step down from the best defensive use of a knife or pistol, how effective is knife or pistol display? To be effective at all, the user has to have training to suggest proficiency. Got it. Can't count on the display like a talisman. got it. Must advise people not to try to intimidate with display. Not sure...

I absolutely see the need that 1. a defender (say my wife) must be prepared to use the knife because a. the display can trigger the planned attack and b. it's the intention to use that backs up the physical display.

and 2. my wife must have training in knife use to support a level of confidence that translates as backing up a threat.


Still, even in poker, not every bluff is backed up.

similarly, I'd expect not every robber will see past a knife-display bluff.

So, what proportion are we talking about here. Will most robbers call the knife-display bluff?



Because if that last question is negative, a self-defense instructor in Florida is endangering students.

 

[swampdog]

So, what proportion are we talking about here. Will most robbers call the knife-display bluff?

You are still not getting it. If 1% call her "bluff" and it's just a bluff, that's too many. Usually when someone calls your bluff at a poker table, they don't take your cards from you and cut your throat with them so it's not a good comparision. Don't use a knife or gun to "bluff". Pretty simple.

 

[JShirley]

if that last question is negative, a self-defense instructor in Florida is endangering students.

It happens every day.

There are a lot of foolish ideas being dispensed as gospel- intimidation factor, to my mind being high on that list- just as there are a lot of good ideas. There are also ideas that are not inherently good or bad, but may be more or less effective, depending on the individual, the circumstance, and the execution.

But good training never hurts.

John

 

[Soap]

Thanks guys!

Boats- I competely agree that "training hard" is a broad concept. I define "training hard" as the process to attain expert proficiency in empty hand fighting, awareness, fitness, shooting, knife usage, improvised weapon usage, running like a striped ape away fu, etc. But most importantly, being able to tie them all together, without thinking, in a real life situation. And as you added, to be able to improvise on top of it all. I also agree that training, by itself, doesn't necessarily prepare one for the real deal. But training is far better than the alternative.

 

[hso]

If she is interested in defending herself from an attacker that didn't schedule their "meeting" far ahead of time so that she could prepare then she must prepare ahead of time for the chance meeting. She must prepare for the fight and not to bluff. She need not train to the extent that she earns a black belt, but enough so that she becomes proficient with the knife on the street. If she uses the knife to defend herself that training will translate as confidence in her ability to harm her attacker. That display of confidence and ability may deter the attacker because like most predators they want easy prey. She's not bluffing if she really means it and has the ability to pull it off. OTOH, if the attacker is some psycho that doesn't believe that your wife would seriously harm him regardless of her display of determination then she especially needs to be able to use the knife with good results on him. She has to be prepared to cut him up so badly that he becomes convinced that she's too dangerous to treat as prey and breaks off an flees to lick his wounds. So, again, if she isn't bluffing she has a much greater potential for the predator to be deterred. If she's bluffing and they don't believe that some "f**king c*nt" will gut them then she's dead.

If the Florida instructor is teaching bluffing instead of killing the SOB then he's dangerous to his students.