Chainfire!

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DuncanSA

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I own an Uberti 1860 Army Colt replica in which loading pure lead .454 balls always produces a good unbroken lead ring as the ball is pushed into the cylinder.

I use lube pills or, if I have not got around to making any, a mixture of a crisco type margerine and bees wax to seal the chambers. During a recent shoot I took a good look at the cut-off lead rings and tight sealing of the chambers and asked myself if wax or grease was really necessary, and decided to test without it. A tight ball to cylinder seal is however not the way to go, and my first shot produced a chain fire! (I had loaded 6, and the cylinder that "chained" was that to the right of the one fired - which would of course have been empty had I only loaded 5). No damage, and a hardly noticable double detonation.

The smooth curves of the frame in front of Colt cylinders seem designed to deflect chain-fired balls without damage, especially at the relatively low pressure of a ball being discharged into air rather than down a barrel.

Posted for information, interest and comment. Personally I shall use lube pills or grease in the future, no matter how tight the ball to cylinder seal seems.
 
A few questions (this is like talking to someone who has recently seen an alien climb out of a UFO).
Was the cap on the chainfired cylinder in place and unfired?
Do you cast your own roundballs?
Black powder (what brand), Pryodex or 777?

I read that the Colts were designed to deflect the ball from a chainfire down to the ground. It happened to me twice, both times with a .36 caliber (one time was in my Spiller & Burr, a Remington-type design), both times the ball came out on the left side of the frame and deflected downward at a 45 degree angle. I had cast the balls myself and they were not perfect. The caps were in place, unfired.
A little extra bang, little extra smoke and some bragging rights.
 
I don't recall if the cap was still there, but all caps fitted pretty tight. I think it must have blown off or I would have noticed it - I am pretty sure that ignition came from the front. I cast the balls with an almost new Lee mold and charge was 24 gr BP (german made WANO). These things happen.

I think the curves on the Colt frame are designed to deflect direct impact by chain fired balls and would seem angled to throw them upward. I once saw such a ball drop about 10 feet in front of the lady firing, she did not even notice that it had happened!
 
I suffered this same thing with a EMF 1860 Colt clone.

I didn't even know it happened, at that instant. I still didn't know it happened when the cap still intact came under the hammer, and popped.

I still didn't know it happened and re-capped that clyinder and the cap popped again!

I waited a while, went to look at my target, and it has 5 in a 6" black Bull and one solo flier high right at the edge in white paper. ***? Huh?

Took a look at the now cold charge and it was GONE!

That was the very first time I ever fired this gun.

I used Goex 3F, and a .451 ball. The chambers are chamfered so swage a ball rather than shear a ring.

Mykeal, while I don't know which end the spark came in on, the fact that a live cap was there at all is amazing to me. I can only guess the spark came in from the front.
 
I watched a chain fire on a Remmie one day ...the chambers were covered with crisco ..the caps were ill fit ..had to be pinched to stay on ...BUT when the hammer fell ..the cap was on the chamber to the left yet that chamber chain fired ..no way possible it came from the front ...lots of crisco ..when it fired the cap came off the chamber faster than I could see where it went . I was watching really close because this guy had already had 2 chain fires 5 mins earlyer ..some how the sparks had to have gotten under the ill fitted caps. He has since switched to propper fitting caps , the pistol hasn`t chainfired since .
 
Sundance44s, you're right. I read people on here all the time. "Well, it might call for #10's but I use #11's and just pinch them".
I just read it and pass on. I don't even bother to try and answer any more. One of these days they'll wish they hadn't done stupid s*** like that. If the gun and the manual call for #10 then use #10. If the gun call's for a
#11 then use #11.
Plus they mess around and swap around with nipples that came from here or there and everywhere and end up with a gun that i would consider unsafe to shoot. I might would fire it in an extreme emergency but by God it would have to be an emergency.
While I'm sure they are not the only one's who sell them, I know for a fact that Cabela's sell's plenty of extra nipples for whatever model the gun may be. The nipples will be from the manufacturer of that piece and designed specifically for that piece, and I know damn well that if Cabela's just happens to be sold out right then, they can just tell Dixie Gun Works what model and type of piece they have and Dixie will hook them up to....
That's one of the reason's I never go to a range. I get off in the fields and woods by myself. I don't want to be standing next to some ass**** and one of his caps come flying off and hit me in the face or maybe the eye. I'vd done managed to live through 3 damn wars and keep my eyes and I sure don't want to lose them behind something like that....
 
So when a gun calls for tens and you use tens and the gun does not fire what is a person, ME,
the ass**** supposed to do?

I have shot black powder for near 30 years and never have had a chain fire.
 
order new nipples thats what im going to do. For now. i tried something and i kinda like it so im going to keep doing it. i put a little dab of grease around each of the nipples. So when you seat a nipple there is grease around it. on the cylinder. i dont put too much to make it go to high. Just enough. Now of course every ball gets lube in the front no matter what. so im pretty sure i should not have any chain fires.
 
hahahaha. Well im out. We bought tickets to the Dodger game tonight. Taking my boys to opening night. See you guys tomorrow.
 
Once more...and Colt says what?
From an old Colt Industries pamphlet:
"Percussion caps are now made in sizes from nine to thirteen. Ten and eleven are the best numbers for the small and medium-sized arms, and twelve for the larger sizes, although, as different-sized nipples are sometimes met in specimens of the same model, no hard and fast rule can be given. It is better to have caps slightly too large than too small, as large caps can be pinched together at the bottom enough so they will stay on the nipples, but small ones must be driven down on the nipple by the blow of the hammer, and this process frequently cushions the blow to the extent of producing a misfire."
 
I`ve got a 51 Navy with a light hammer spring ...it won`t fire a CCI # 10 cap ..but Remington # 10 `s fit even better and it goes off every time .
 
QUOTE]Why are you sure the chainfire originated from the front of the cylinder?[[/QUOTE]

What makes you think it didn't.

I get frustrated at the "either or mentality" exhibited by many on this board.

I've been shooting BP revolvers since the 60's, and I am convinced that crossfires (never heard the term chainfire 'til I started hanging around here) can be and are caused by BOTH loose fitting caps and loose seal at the front of the chamber.

My personal experience:

Some individual guns are more prone than others, no matter what nipples you use.

Crisco is a waste of time, might as well not be using anything at all. For those who who are all so sure that the crossfire only comes from the back end, why bother with mess? For the rest of us, my experience with Crisco is that it disappears after the first couple of shots, it's just too light to do a good job.

I experimented with this waaaay back when. I could make a gun crossfire occasionally by using the wrong caps.

I even went to the extreme of firing a fully loaded Navy a few times with no caps on the back of the other cylinders. Sometimes it crossfired, and sometimes it didn't. Out of about 25 attempts, we were able to get all six chambers to go only once.

I could make most guns crossfire everytime when I didn't lube it, and a lot of that depended on the ball size. I could also eliminate a lot of crossfires by using a heavier mix than crisco.

I cut v-notches in balls and fired them with various and no lubes. Again, sometimes they crossfired, and sometimes they didn't. The rate at the front was a hellofalot higher than at the back.

On a final note:

After "forcing" hundreds of crossfires from three different guns I have come to the conclusion that:

1. They are not that big a deal. We didn't ruin any guns, and nobody got hurt. ( I wasn't smart enough to use a rest or gun vice back then) Practice safe gun handling, and wear your glasses...... what part of that do you not understand?

2. If you shoot these guns a lot, sooner or later your gonna get a crossfire. It's an inherent downside of the fact that you have an open channel to the powder charge. It's in the design, deal with it.

3. The biggest problem with multiple crossfires is cleaning up the mess. You get lead jammed into everything at the front of the cylinders. You get powder residue all over everything, and it scares the crap out of you, even when you are expecting it to happen.


But back to my main point, crossfires can happen at both ends of the cylinder. If you want to argue about it go ahead, just don't expect me to be impressed.
 
The chain fire / crossfire if you must .I watched happen ..couldn`t have happened from the front ..it was the first shot , not the second or third ...all the chambers had a heavy coat of lube over the balls .
The guy was pinching his Ill fitting caps to the point that there was a gap around the base of the cap .
I shoot my Remmies dry all the time ..and have never had a chainfire ...I don`t have Ill fit caps falling off the nipples from the recoil eaither . If there is a way to keep it from happening ...there are guys here that know how , and shoot 4 times a month ...me for one ...Why take chances and draw up every time you fire a shot worrieing about the fact it could happen ...address the reasons why it happens first and you may never have a chainfire ..there are only 3 ways it can happen ..it`s not rocket science . Cover your bases best you can ...and if it still happens , look for a crack in a chamber wall ..reason number #3.
 
Mykeal
I can't definitely say from which end of the cylinder the chain-fire came. The front seemed pretty well sealed with good lead rings cut on inserting the ball.
The nipples were fairly new Treso No. 11 and the caps No. 11 CCI. When capping, I press them down with a dowel and very seldom get a misfire.

Thinking things over, I tend to believe that the chain-fire probably came from behind. Maybe I did not press a cap down as firmly as I thought I had. It all goes back to the old saying " Constant vigillance is the price of not blowing your finger off".

Can you comment on the elegant curves on Colt frames - obviously weight saving, but possibly also designed to minimize damage from chain-fires?
 
tkendrick is correct when he says that crossfires can happen at both ends of the cylinder. Even though I know mine happened from the ball end, I pay alot of attention to the caps and the way they sit on the nipples. I would never fire a gun if a cap fell off a loaded cylinder.
He's also right when he says that some guns are more prone than others, no matter what nipples you use.
Also, crossfires or chainfires, in my experience, were no big deal. Extra smoke, extra bang, no damage.
I've often wondered if the Crisco I use is worthwhile. True, it does blow away after the first shot, at least the visible portion, but I think that it does form a ring around the ball in the cylinder that might prevent a spark from slipping by. In the two crossfires I had, I was using lube pills under the balls with no Crisco.
 
One thing about useing crisco over all the chambers if you are a little sloppy on the powder drops ..the crisco will wet the loose powder on the face of the cylinder ..wet powder no go boom.
 
Guys Brother BP men. Calm down. Some of you guys are venting in the wrong way. About a month ago on Handloads.com they closed down the black powder forums. Due to big egos. We all have good things to bring to this forums. Everyone one of us. Lets not ruin a good thing. Weather you have been shooting BP for 1 year or 50 years. We all need to relax.
 
Years ago, I had a '45 loaded with crisco, for awhile. Shot it near dark, and it was like a bunch of Roman candles. I quickly chucked it into a field. Now I have a nice Uberti '36 and know about the ring of lead thing, but just drip wax on the balls :eek: It stays good forever or at least four years that I know of.
 
I did get up on the wrong side of the bed , with my bones hurting ...I zip my lip , for the rest of the day ..case closed .
 
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