Chainfire!

[mykeal]

QUOTE]Why are you sure the chainfire originated from the front of the cylinder?[

What makes you think it didn't.
I get frustrated at the "either or mentality" exhibited by many on this board.

Mr. Kendrick -

I don't believe I expressed any opinion on the matter one way or the other. I simply asked the question, trying to get some information. I like to keep an open mind and gather as much information as I can before expressing an opinion, if one is warranted.

Also, I think I've many times expressed, on this and other forums, the opinion that chainfires, or crossfires, or 'inadvertent ignitions', or 'out-of-battery ignitions' or whatever term one wishes to use (and I've heard them all over the last 40 years) can and do occur from either end of the cylinder. Prevention is a matter of paying attention to detail at both ends. And I don't believe that they are inevitable.

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Well, I don't know. I do know I'vd never had a chainfire.
I do use Crisco on the front of the chambers, but I do the other stuff to.
I'm not saying that my way is the only way it can be done but I know my '58's came to me with nipples installed on the cylinders and calling for #10 percussion caps. My '49 came the same way. My Walker came with nipples designed for the #11 percussion caps. My NAA came with nipples designed for the #11 percussion caps. I use whatever cap either one of those particular gun's call for. I'm not about to stand there trying to force a #10 cap onto a nipple that was designed for a #11 cap, and I am not about to stand there and pinch a #11 cap trying to make it stay on a nipple that was sized for a #10 cap.
To me that's just common sense.
The only type of percussion cap I have ever fired is a Remington. The only thing I know about a CCI percussion cap is that none of them will ever be on one of my pieces.
Neither will a nipple except for the ones made and sold by Pietta or Uberti or NAA for whatever particular piece I may need the nipples for. Thankfully I have an abundant supply for each piece so I'm not likely to have to worry about that for the next 2 or 3 hundred years.
This s*** reminds me of people trying to lose weight. They'll set there and pig out on everything and then turn right around and drink a diet Coke and think that made everything alright.
Well, I don't guess it matters. Sure isn't any of my business, I know that. Besides, I shoot by myself anyway....

 

[mykeal]

Can you comment on the elegant curves on Colt frames - obviously weight saving, but possibly also designed to minimize damage from chain-fires?

I tend towards the opinion that Mr. Colt's design of the 1860 Army and subsequent guns was based on saving weight. At least, that's what he said drove the effort to produce the 1860 - a .44 cal revolver that was easier to carry than the Dragoons. To date I haven't seen any historical material that suggests he used the 'out-of-battery ignition' as a design criteria. It's possible, I suppose, but I've not run across it.

 

[sundance44s]

 

[scrat]

WOW that is crazy

 

[sundance44s]

Might be why they won`t let me shoot at the indoor range ...LOL
Thats suppose to be an 1858 Remmie ..camera must a caught it just right .

 

[mykeal]

WOW that is crazy

No, that's normal. That's what happens on every round. People who insist on stuffing their chambers full of powder need to see that picture - most of their powder burns OUTSIDE the barrel...

 

[sundance44s]

It`s easy to see how a close in gun fight would have caught someones clothes on fire ..adding insult to injury .

 

[DuncanSA]

Congratuations Sundance. A really great pic !

 

[scrat]

Sundance tell us more about that pic. Where did you get it. it looks like several cylinders went off. How many what was the results.

 

[sundance44s]

No thats not a chain fire ..I`ve got a few pic saved on here somewhere , I`ll see if I can find more ...don`t remember where I got them from .Don`t want to scare the newbies out of shooting their new pistols ..but this is the flames from one shot ...Don`t have one of a full stuffed Walker ..wish I did.

 

[sundance44s]

 

[scrat]

Wow that is incredible. Excellent picture

 

[sundance44s]

My Favorite

 

[sundance44s]

Makes understanding how a Chain fire could happen ...Think I`ll go back to useing lube over my balls ...Phew.

 

[Im283]

the wife is going otu of town this weekend. She does not like me shooting after supper time. I am going to try to shoot right at dark one day and see if I can video it on my phone. I have done it with other firearms. The Mosin Nagant shows flame even in the middle of the day.
A .44 stuffed with 30 grains of fff ought to look pretty impressive after lights out.

 

[razorback1010]

In 30 years of BP shooting ( I started very young), I've never experienced chain/cross fire and I've been only doing lube over balls since I started championships three years ago cause it's mandatory. I've always used tight caps and fitting bullets in : ASM Colt 1851, Uberti Rem 58 .36, Dragoon third model, Whitneyville Dragoon, Walker, 1862 Police, Uberti Rem 58 .44, Pietta Rem 58 .44. All I can say is that I witnessed years back an inox Uberti 58 shooting the 6 rounds all at once because of loose fitting bullets and certainly loose grains of powder in front of the cylinder, but it never occurred to me.

 

[scrat]

Last time i was at the range this fella was shooting a bp revolver next to me. he saw me put lube over the bullets and asked why. Then when i saw him loading up i showed him the spilled powder over the other balls. He quickly took out his brand new tube of borebutter and started lubing. problem is that the spilled powder always sticks to any lube that is on the cylinder. So you either keep wiping and hope you got it all or Wipe and lube the balls. i Take extra precautions when i shoot. Powder (fiber wad) ball, lube. Wipe then ready to shoot.

 

[fastson]

Not a chain-fire but a cool pic none the less. Taken with a mobile phone (video).. Should try taking a pic with my dSLR on long exposure sometime.

 

[Perk]

Those're some awsome photos, fellers!

Guess timing IS everything.

 

[tkendrick]

Mykeal,

Sorry, Didn't intend to get your back up.

By odd coincidence, I had just had a long and rather heated discussion with a young shooter at my club. He has been shooting Black Powder revolvers for a whole three weeks!!!, and told me in no uncertain terms that the only way a crossfire could happen was if the caps fell off....And he had an article from Muzzleblasts magazine to prove it.

He was getting crossfires every time he fired the gun. The balls were obviously undersized, you could seat them most of the way with your thumb, and he was using no lube or wadding of any kind.

But obviously (in his mind) the problem was his caps. He read it in a magazine.

I didn't intend for my comment to be quite so personal, and it wasn't meant to be a slam.

But I do have a serious question.

If you are loading your gun correctly, ie, doing everything right, tight caps, good lube, felt wads, etc etc. , and you get a crossfire, how the heck do you tell where it started from or what caused it? Any answer is a guess, at best.

 

[mykeal]

The answer as to at which end the incident started is indeed a wild guess. I asked DuncanSA hoping he had some more information, because his description of the incident led me to the conclusion that his case was initiated from the back, and he said he was sure it started from the front - something was missing. Turns out he was guessing, too.

I saw such an article in The Backwoodsman (Jan/Feb 08 issue). The Backwoodsman article was one man's opinion, and frankly Keller was wrong. He provided no proof to support his opinion, and Backwoodsman was wrong to have published the article. The young shooter at your club made exactly the mistake such articles (and young, inexperienced people) are famous for - if it was written in a magazine, it must be right; calling it 'proof' just because it was published is clearly foolish.

You are correct. It can come from either end. There is no panacea; attention to detail is the best known preventative measure, but even that is no guarantee.

 

[Jim K]

There is another possibility that has not been mentioned. In a percussion revolver, the entire cylinder sets back on recoil. IF the recoil shield is not properly shaped (and I have seen some repros where it is not), or IF the ratchet is worn or not correctly made, or IF the nipples are too high, the cylinder recoil can fire one or more caps other than the one fired by the hammer. All the conditions have to be right (or wrong) for that to happen, but it has happened and a gun that "crossfires" should be carefully examined if the cause is not obvious.

Incidentally, the term "in battery" is really not applicable, since it means that the breechblock is in the proper firing postion with the barrel. It might be applied to an out-of-time revolver that fires when not in proper alignment, but I have never heard the term used that way.

Jim

 

[mykeal]

the cylinder recoil can fire one or more caps other than the one fired by the hammer. All the conditions have to be right (or wrong) for that to happen

Yes, it can. Good point. Thanks for the reminder.

Incidentally, the term "in battery" is really not applicable, since it means that the breechblock is in the proper firing postion with the barrel. It might be applied to an out-of-time revolver that fires when not in proper alignment, but I have never heard the term used that way.

You are correct. However, I believe the term used was 'out-of-battery', referring to a chamber other than the one in alignment with the bore.

 

[SIGP2101]