Change of feature in Centerpoint scopes sold at Walmart...good, bad or no consequence?

[LoonWulf]

Just to toss something else out there. You arnt just paying for the scope, your paying for the tooling, personnel, advertising, boxes (which are very nice), and all the rest of the stuff that goes into getting that scope out to the public. You are also paying for the next series of scopes being engineered.

Then youll have to take into account that there might be only 1 of those big boys sold to every 1000 of the lower end scopes, yet they still take up the same or more time and tooling if they use similar parts. The big scopes like the one linked likely use tottaly separate parts which will cost substantialy more.

 

[lobo9er]

there is nobody going to tell me it costs maybe $3000 for them to make that scope or anyone else for that matter. I mean really how much can it cost to make a good scope? I had $150 bushnells hold zero for 30 years. if some have to much money and are trying to get rid of it they can have at all the 5K scopes they want

Huh alright. I can't afford high end scopes VX-1's are my best glass, they work well and will for life I bet, but technology progresses a 30 year scope still works great, I still use a Leupold that was sold originally to my grandfather on his 1971 Ithaca deer slayer, that combo still fills the freezer, but theres been advances in scopes and if someone wants the cutting edge pony up. I respect you opinion, but disagree. I see nothing unethical about Leupold. Unless you can site a specific article that shows otherwise. Simply selling expensive quality gear doesn't sell me on it. All the top scope manufactures have similar priced scopes which would lead me to believe they are competing in a market where the market creates the pricing. Whats your opinion on the Night Force "Beast" 5-25x56?

 

[lobo9er]

there is nobody going to tell me it costs maybe $3000 for them to make that scope or anyone else for that matter. I mean really how much can it cost to make a good scope? I had $150 bushnells hold zero for 30 years. if some have to much money and are trying to get rid of it they can have at all the 5K scopes they want

$1.00 in 1986 (thirty years ago) has the same buying power as $2.20 in 2016. < found that on the web... so your bushnell is the 30 year equivalent to something closer to a Leupold VX-3i. You bought a nice scope 30 years ago, which makes sense since its still in service.

 

[salt&battery]

Huh alright. I can't afford high end scopes VX-1's are my best glass, they work well and will for life I bet, but technology progresses a 30 year scope still works great, I still use a Leupold that was sold originally to my grandfather on his 1971 Ithaca deer slayer, that combo still fills the freezer, but theres been advances in scopes and if someone wants the cutting edge pony up. I respect you opinion, but disagree. I see nothing unethical about Leupold. Unless you can site a specific article that shows otherwise. Simply selling expensive quality gear doesn't sell me on it. All the top scope manufactures have similar priced scopes which would lead me to believe they are competing in a market where the market creates the pricing. Whats your opinion on the Night Force "Beast" 5-25x56?

those scopes are very good but I think way overpriced and I believe once they got into military contracts where wasting money on a monumental scale is the way of business they were able to really jack up the price then some guys like to have what the military uses so there was a civilian market. if I was a billionaire I would not buy those scopes

 

[salt&battery]

$1.00 in 1986 (thirty years ago) has the same buying power as $2.20 in 2016. < found that on the web... so your bushnell is the 30 year equivalent to something closer to a Leupold VX-3i. You bought a nice scope 30 years ago, which makes sense since its still in service.

yes you are correct but the thing is I have been in const for 45 years had a framing crew for 35 years and I was making almost the same per sq ft in '86 as in 2015 and that was without needing the boat anchor of comp insurance

 

[salt&battery]

Just to toss something else out there. You arnt just paying for the scope, your paying for the tooling, personnel, advertising, boxes (which are very nice), and all the rest of the stuff that goes into getting that scope out to the public. You are also paying for the next series of scopes being engineered.

Then youll have to take into account that there might be only 1 of those big boys sold to every 1000 of the lower end scopes, yet they still take up the same or more time and tooling if they use similar parts. The big scopes like the one linked likely use tottaly separate parts which will cost substantialy more.

sounds like a company that is to top heavy. scopes from china are getting better every year and they never seem to have the troubles that plague the US companies and talking about slave labor with china doesn't make sense when CNC machines do most of the work. Ruger and savage have shown they can make a very accurate rifle for a little over $400 and a good model for US companies to follow

 

[lobo9er]

yes you are correct but the thing is I have been in const for 45 years had a framing crew for 35 years and I was making almost the same per sq ft in '86 as in 2015 and that was without needing the boat anchor of comp insurance

^ yep I agree with your insurance take. Every quality scope manufacturer has similar lines bushnell, leupold, etc. unless you compare to economy line scopes though... so with that logic no one should ever buy from one of the top scope brands. But around around we go. I enjoy what I like and so do you as well. And in the end I'm happy if your happy. Always fun to converse/debate gun stuff.

 

[LoonWulf]

sounds like a company that is to top heavy. scopes from china are getting better every year and they never seem to have the troubles that plague the US companies and talking about slave labor with china doesn't make sense when CNC machines do most of the work. Ruger and savage have shown they can make a very accurate rifle for a little over $400 and a good model for US companies to follow

And leupold, has scopes that are very accurate for around 200 bucks. If you get right down to it a rifle tho larger is a much simpler and easier to manufacture item than a rifle scope. When we start getting to the meat of the line were back in the 6-700 dollar range, then when we get to the top end which would likely carry one of those big scopes (from any maker not just Leupold), were looking at 1500+.

As to the chinese manufacturing i agree its getting better and better, but they still dont produce any scopes that offer the same functionality as the middle of the road scopes, some of which are make in korea and the Philippines.

As a tid bit, not sure it maters either way, but when i was part of the import car scene chinese knock of parts would come out within months of the more expensive name brand stuff. Quality was always acceptable, and they did what they were supposed to....but the parts were never released till they had something to copy from.

 

[salt&battery]

And leupold, has scopes that are very accurate for around 200 bucks. If you get right down to it a rifle tho larger is a much simpler and easier to manufacture item than a rifle scope. When we start getting to the meat of the line were back in the 6-700 dollar range, then when we get to the top end which would likely carry one of those big scopes (from any maker not just Leupold), were looking at 1500+.

As to the chinese manufacturing i agree its getting better and better, but they still dont produce any scopes that offer the same functionality as the middle of the road scopes, some of which are make in korea and the Philippines.

As a tid bit, not sure it maters either way, but when i was part of the import car scene chinese knock of parts would come out within months of the more expensive name brand stuff. Quality was always acceptable, and they did what they were supposed to....but the parts were never released till they had something to copy from.

this is a good discussion and no one is getting insulted. leatherwood has a Chinese made red dot hi lux micro max battery life 55000 hrs. (6.2 years) put that one and an aimpoint on a 338 lapua semi auto and if you can believe this froze both of them along with the rifle at -85 below zero for 12 hours then proceeded to fire the 338 multiple times with the hi lux humming along and it was the aimpoint that had trouble. at the time the hi lux was $199 now $239 and the aimpoint around $700. so the Chinese will make what they are told to make. if a greedy company tells them to make junk they will if leatherwood tells them to make a good red dot they did

 

[LoonWulf]

+1 I'm enjoying workimg thru this in my head as we talk about it.

I should have been a little clearer. What I really ment wasnt necessarily that the Chinese built scopes, and red dots (i have a tr25 that im pretty sure is Chinese made that i love), arnt robust and reliable. Ive actually never had a chinese built scope or dot fail, and I do own quite a few and beat on them pretty good.

What i ment was the repeatable adjustability, and opitcal quality that you get in the 5-1k range of scopes. I've honestly got very little experience with anything over about 400 bucks, I certainly dont own any, but the ones ive played with that belong to friends always tracked well, and were very clear and bright. Mostly the tracking is where I see the chinese scopes lacking. The only leupold I've owned, which was a mark ar(bout 350) tracked perfectly. Shooting the square was easy, and dailing for drop at range was simply knowing the correct trajectory.

I have owned a chinese no name scope that was made specifically for airguns, which tracked wonderfully, held zero and was pretty damn clear. All for about 40 bucks, loved that scope.

I also agree If someone had the Chinese manufactur a true mid/high lvl scope with the correct quality control and unit testing, i bet they would still do it cheaper than a US manufacturing company, but i also dont think it would be significantly less.

 

[salt&battery]

+1 I'm enjoying workimg thru this in my head as we talk about it.

I should have been a little clearer. What I really ment wasnt necessarily that the Chinese built scopes, and red dots (i have a tr25 that im pretty sure is Chinese made that i love), arnt robust and reliable. Ive actually never had a chinese built scope or dot fail, and I do own quite a few and beat on them pretty good.

What i ment was the repeatable adjustability, and opitcal quality that you get in the 5-1k range of scopes. I've honestly got very little experience with anything over about 400 bucks, I certainly dont own any, but the ones ive played with that belong to friends always tracked well, and were very clear and bright. Mostly the tracking is where I see the chinese scopes lacking. The only leupold I've owned, which was a mark ar(bout 350) tracked perfectly. Shooting the square was easy, and dailing for drop at range was simply knowing the correct trajectory.

I have owned a chinese no name scope that was made specifically for airguns, which tracked wonderfully, held zero and was pretty damn clear. All for about 40 bucks, loved that scope.

I also agree If someone had the Chinese manufactur a true mid/high lvl scope with the correct quality control and unit testing, i bet they would still do it cheaper than a US manufacturing company, but i also dont think it would be significantly less.

I have shot a lot of long distance and even with "good" scopes never trusted zooming in and out being at real long range a change of POI can be had. also was never one to be wheeling away with the elevation knobs being so hard to figure where you started from and to wear out the little spines and I think change the tracking. I would zero one or 2 mil dots above the crosshair at 200 yds giving me a lot of holdover all the way to the bottom last dot. even with windage I like the burris E2 setup where they have windage hold offs. each man uses what he thinks is the best for him

 

[LoonWulf]

Point taken, Ive only really plinked at long range, but i do like to dial up. No idea how long even the best quality scopes adjustments would last tho honestly, but now we circle back to that wonderful warranty

Pretty much all the scopes i shoot are Nikons with the BDC reticle, i agree once adjusted and learned i prefer them on my hunting guns.

 

[lobo9er]

I have a leatherwood red dot a cheaper one, not impressed a friend has same model but 30mm version it has been rock solid, mine has a little paint flakes or dirt in the tube and now sits on a 22 handgun I don't shoot to often. The problem with lots of Chinese stuff isn't greedy people every time its quality control lots of times. And my Leatherwood may just be a fluke like all companies have.

Heres my big dig with your argument... You in 1986 bought a quality scope which equals a 300+ dollar scope now days. But today your advising to buy only economy lines because guys who sell scopes for more than 80 dollars are jacking prices to give you a warranty eluding that their scopes are only truly worth 80 bucks or a 3rd of their price. The problem with this is the Glass, the durability, and internals of economy line scopes are usually not as good as scopes that cost 200 or 300 hundred dollars. My centerpoint scope in question in the OP is not as good as my 160-200 dollar Leupold. In fact I'd say the Loopy is twice as good and the price reflects that. But heres where I think I can agree with you... the Centerpoint is usable it works and holds zero, if thats all you want, boom don't spend more. If you want to and can afford more better clarity, durability, and internals are available, but cost more, why shouldn't they. I don't turn dials some guys do and better scopes are repeatable and the internals hold up.

 

[salt&battery]

Point taken, Ive only really plinked at long range, but i do like to dial up. No idea how long even the best quality scopes adjustments would last tho honestly, but now we circle back to that wonderful warranty

Pretty much all the scopes i shoot are Nikons with the BDC reticle, i agree once adjusted and learned i prefer them on my hunting guns.

yes if you get the right reticle learn it at different distances and use a range finder and just go to the point on the reticle that corresponds it is faster. plinking at long range is more fun for me hitting man size rocks or piles of dry dirt next to a woodchuck hole at 800 yds is more fun then the strain of trying to shoot a small group. once my scope is zeroed I never like to turn the turrets

 

[salt&battery]

I have a leatherwood red dot a cheaper one, not impressed a friend has same model but 30mm version it has been rock solid, mine has a little paint flakes or dirt in the tube and now sits on a 22 handgun I don't shoot to often. The problem with lots of Chinese stuff isn't greedy people every time its quality control lots of times. And my Leatherwood may just be a fluke like all companies have.

Heres my big dig with your argument... You in 1986 bought a quality scope which equals a 300+ dollar scope now days. But today your advising to buy only economy lines because guys who sell scopes for more than 80 dollars are jacking prices to give you a warranty eluding that their scopes are only truly worth 80 bucks or a 3rd of their price. The problem with this is the Glass, the durability, and internals of economy line scopes are usually not as good as scopes that cost 200 or 300 hundred dollars. My centerpoint scope in question in the OP is not as good as my 160-200 dollar Leupold. In fact I'd say the Loopy is twice as good and the price reflects that. But heres where I think I can agree with you... the Centerpoint is usable it works and holds zero, if thats all you want, boom don't spend more. If you want to and can afford more better clarity, durability, and internals are available, but cost more, why shouldn't they. I don't turn dials some guys do and better scopes are repeatable and the internals hold up.

yes leather wood made cheap red dots. but the model I listed is the good one. when I got that scope in 86 there were way more scopes for big money then cheap ones the Chinese scopes were not around. plus what I was making then was almost the same as now many people making the same money as 20 years ago.
the CP 4x12 adventure series in question was crystal clear a little glare if facing the sun held zero on brutal kicking airguns to 30-06 class rifles. that is what I want a scope to do and that is all a scope can do anyway. you and loon wolf are both nice guys made a lot of sense and no one got mad.

 

[lobo9er]

yes leather wood made cheap red dots. but the model I listed is the good one. when I got that scope in 86 there were way more scopes for big money then cheap ones the Chinese scopes were not around. plus what I was making then was almost the same as now many people making the same money as 20 years ago.
the CP 4x12 adventure series in question was crystal clear a little glare if facing the sun held zero on brutal kicking airguns to 30-06 class rifles. that is what I want a scope to do and that is all a scope can do anyway. you and loon wolf are both nice guys made a lot of sense and no one got mad.

ha 2shay, just debating and talking about gun stuff my last post was a little chippy sounding though then you go and say something nice... You win.

 

[lobo9er]

My friends Leatherwood has been on everything from an AR-15 to a Single shot 12 gauge that was a bit of a mule. The Leatherwood scopes usually get great reviews and I would have thought they would have gotten where Vortex is now. Vortex is chinese and defies the chinese reputation. But their high end scope they released is US made I am betting to try to compete for Gov'ment contracts and the MSRP is over 2 grand

 

[lobo9er]

... whoops double tap

 

[CraigC]

Wow, some folks will go to a lot of trouble to convince themselves that their cheap crap is "just as good" as something reputed to be better. Sorry but I've laid far too many cheap scopes to rest to buy this nonsense. Not all stuff made in China is cheap garbage but a lot of it is. Not everything made in the US is good but a lot of it is. If you think that any of the budget priced optics made in China are just as good as a Leupold, you have a very vivid imagination.

 

[salt&battery]

Wow, some folks will go to a lot of trouble to convince themselves that their cheap crap is "just as good" as something reputed to be better. Sorry but I've laid far too many cheap scopes to rest to buy this nonsense. Not all stuff made in China is cheap garbage but a lot of it is. Not everything made in the US is good but a lot of it is. If you think that any of the budget priced optics made in China are just as good as a Leupold, you have a very vivid imagination.

I aint convincing myself or anyone else about what scopes to get or not to get. I have NEVER saw any scopes fail during a hunt or otherwise unless it is made up and all I hear about leupold and vortex is how good the warranty is. not the scope but the warranty. has your Chinese phone lap top or PC failed yet?

 

[CraigC]

This is about optics, not electronics. Last I checked, I'm not gambling a $10,000 hunt on my iPhone or PC but that crap does fail, all the time. So do cheap scopes. I ought to know, I've had a pile of them fail. Not one Leupold, Redfield, Bushnell Elite or Burris.

There's a hell of a lot more to Leupold than the warranty. I don't buy warranties.

 

[lobo9er]

I agree theres more than the warranty, but will maintain we live in a great time theres very effective guns and gun stuff available at almost all price points.

 

[SamT1]

This type of discussion is why you can't trust things on the Internet.

Your delusional if you can't tell a huge quality difference in a center point and a Leupold.
Come on really? Besides that in 5 years the center point is worthless, it's the kind of scope that gets left on a gun when you sell it and it adds no value to the gun. The Leupold on the other hand is worth 75% of the original purchase price depending on the model. But you'd probably keep it and move it gun to gun for years. Simple math tells me the Leupold was actually cheaper to own. Leupold probably Carrys more residual value than anything else because they have built that name over time.

I own my share of cheap scopes and several brands of good ones old and new. I have 2 cheap ones that work good, and a couple $200 scopes that suck. I've destroyed cheap scopes from recoil on magnum handguns. Some of the conclusions about the center point are true, you get a lot for the money. It's a much better buy than many of the cheap scopes out there. But at the end of the day it's a poor investment. You have to come to terms that it's not equal or close to a Leupold and it's worthless when your done with it. I realize most people are fine with that, because it gets the job done. I just wish when I was in highschool someone would have explained to me what I just laid out. You buy good optics they don't depreciate much and the last for a lifetime. Or you buy cheap, they carry no value and have a limited lifespan. I bet I've spent $2000 on cheap optics in 15 years, I still have a few of those, but most are in a landfill or were left on guns I traded/sold. It was a lost investment. On the the other hand the quality scopes I've bought I still have and I could actually sell them. Most of them I bought used so I could get all my money back today if I wanted/needed to.
If I had that 2k still I could put a Leupold vx2 or 3 on every gun I own that has a junker on it today.

 

[salt&battery]

This type of discussion is why you can't trust things on the Internet.

Your delusional if you can't tell a huge quality difference in a center point and a Leupold.
Come on really? Besides that in 5 years the center point is worthless, it's the kind of scope that gets left on a gun when you sell it and it adds no value to the gun. The Leupold on the other hand is worth 75% of the original purchase price depending on the model. But you'd probably keep it and move it gun to gun for years. Simple math tells me the Leupold was actually cheaper to own. Leupold probably Carrys more residual value than anything else because they have built that name over time.

I own my share of cheap scopes and several brands of good ones old and new. I have 2 cheap ones that work good, and a couple $200 scopes that suck. I've destroyed cheap scopes from recoil on magnum handguns. Some of the conclusions about the center point are true, you get a lot for the money. It's a much better buy than many of the cheap scopes out there. But at the end of the day it's a poor investment. You have to come to terms that it's not equal or close to a Leupold and it's worthless when your done with it. I realize most people are fine with that, because it gets the job done. I just wish when I was in highschool someone would have explained to me what I just laid out. You buy good optics they don't depreciate much and the last for a lifetime. Or you buy cheap, they carry no value and have a limited lifespan. I bet I've spent $2000 on cheap optics in 15 years, I still have a few of those, but most are in a landfill or were left on guns I traded/sold. It was a lost investment. On the the other hand the quality scopes I've bought I still have and I could actually sell them. Most of them I bought used so I could get all my money back today if I wanted/needed to.
If I had that 2k still I could put a Leupold vx2 or 3 on every gun I own that has a junker on it today.

yes I can tell the difference $69 to $300. the reason why people buy cheaper scopes is cause they don't have the money to buy expensive scopes. people with money just cannot understand that a lot of people do not have that much spare money same way politicians are out of touch. trying to add up what you spent on cheap scopes is like saying you should have paid in full when you bought your house instead of making payments. buying cheaper scopes is almost the same

 

[salt&battery]

This is about optics, not electronics. Last I checked, I'm not gambling a $10,000 hunt on my iPhone or PC but that crap does fail, all the time. So do cheap scopes. I ought to know, I've had a pile of them fail. Not one Leupold, Redfield, Bushnell Elite or Burris.

There's a hell of a lot more to Leupold than the warranty. I don't buy warranties.

if you have 10K of extra money to spend on a hunt then you are unlike 90% of guys that have guns and do not have that money. a lot of info given here would be better suited at a country club or goldman sachs board meeting. so if a guy cant buy an expensive scope is he still allowed to buy what he can afford or is he banned from shooting. you saying you never saw all those scopes fail is as unbelievable as all the ones you did say you saw fail. expensive scopes fail and most talk about how good the warranty is because of it