Changing My Stance On Open Carry

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And, if you are an "OC person", be aware that it is remotely possible that you are a target by BG's who might want to either 1) take your weapon, or 2) neutralize you first, then continue with their robbery/whatever.

I'm not starting a OC/CC argument, just suggesting that situational awareness might be even more important if you choose to OC. In most situations, nothing is happening to "raise your hackles", so it's a good thing to do.
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on this point, you are absolutely correct. SA should be practiced at all times, but for OC, it's critical.
 
My biggest fear with open carry is being concealed for a moment and getting busted for carrying concealed without a license. I live in a county where CCW permits are basically impossible.
 
As my OC has been confined to rural, National Forest type settings, it doesn't really count. During hunting season, nobody raises an eyebrow.

Regarding the concern for accidentally concealing a handgun, you can either go "cowboy" and carry it low on your thigh (and there are nylon versions of this for those that want to be "tacticool"), or go "hunter" and carry it in a shoulder/chest holster outside your jacket.

The danger of accidentally concealing, IMO, would be the typical OWB belt holster...

As I'm new to the concept of OC in more urban settings, I can imagine that the more obvious holster arrangements are also a lot more "in your face" with the presence of a gun. Something one might not want to do.

I'm going to have to research this. I haven't any idea how folks are OC'ing.
 
I have been OCing on a fairly steady basis in the Greater New Orleans area since June. (My wife is not entirely comfortable with the idea, so I appreciate the shopping story ealier in this thread.) Prior to this June, I only kept my gun in my car or readily accesible at home. I have mostly had positive experiences when in public. Go to OpenCarry.org and search for my thread about what happened to me the day after Hurricane Gustave for the only negative encounter I've had (my screen name is the same over there).

This past weekend, I finally took a concealed carry class so that when I carry during the winter, my coat will not be an illegal concealment problem. Both OC and CC can be valuable means of having one's weapon at hand if needed. Knowing the risks inherent in both methods is every bit as important as knowing the safe handling rules.

We should all support each other as fellow gun owners, even if we disagree about our choice of carry. Ben Franklin once said, "If we do not hang together, then surely we will all hang separately." For all of us, how we "hang" it ought not to be a "hang-up," otherwise, our right to keep and bear arms may get permanently "hung up" in the closet of history.
 
tacbandit said:
perhaps we could be a little more
sensitive to their perspective, to help our own cause. I.e.,........We have an
OC permit, and we're carrying...We're on our way to little Johnny/Judys' ball game...Is it so hard to pull out the shirt-tail, etc., for the duration of a kids
outdoor athletic event..?You're stilled armed...Is it so important that we have to say"Hey...look at me...I'm armed, because I have a permit, and I can be?"
I realize that most of us DON'T think that way, but does it really help our cause, as to the perspective of those non-carrying folks???
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No, I respectfully submit that it does NOT help our cause. We have allowed society to regress to a point where the sight of an armed citizen is cause for alarm if not outright panic on the part of large segments of the population. You don't help overcome that by ensuring that those people never see an armed man. To the contrary, they need to be desensitized. They NEED to see neatly dressed, well-groomed men and women openly carrying firearms in order to dispel the perception that anyone who wears a GUN! must be an evil-doer.
 
I was under the impression that it was ok to carry in a national forest ,but not ok in a national park. In fact, there is now some bureaucratic nonsense regarding changing the law so that the carry is legal in both. The nonsense is that the time to get informed opinion has been changed twice. I guess they're hoping Obama will kill the idea and the bureacrats can be once again in charge of America.:barf:
 
Aguila Blanka (SP)



I agree with your sentiments, but I feel it only does harm to shove this down peoples throats. A more societally acceptable way may be to hand out fliers at the local gas station/mall/red light and get people talking about this. Once its in peoples daily conversations/thoughts it would be easier for them to accept the sight of an armed civilian seeing as they now are aware of the right of them to do so.



I have had many people who shoot regular tell me this is illegal and I have directed them to the OC website, they (some of them) still dont agree its legal, but none of them knew about it prior to this. These people are lifelong PA residents and avid shooters.




"Isn't OC legal in Colorado?"





Could be, but in PA if you carry concealed, it must be concealed. Theres no quasi concealed allowed due to OC laws.
 
in PA if you carry concealed, it must be concealed. Theres no quasi concealed allowed due to OC laws.
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wrong. no one is required to carry concealed, no matter what anyone tells you. if you can't see it, it's concealed. if you can, then you're carrying openly. there's no such thing as "quasi" concealed. either it is or it isn't.
 
Here is a link that will give you information on the state of AZ...Some think good sense is not needed for open carry...It is a lot more complicated than some think. http://opencarry.org/az.html

If you don't have a good lock box in your vehicle and you are going somewhere you are not allowed to open carry, do you leave it at home or hide it CCW, (lock it in your trunk and many observe it) and if so, are you in violation, or do you have the license to carrry CCW, and if not, why not :what:

Some think stopping at a corner stop sign is not for them, how about carring concealed and breaking the law? :uhoh:

Many consider the laws that are made, are for others IMHO... Tombstone territory, 1800's comes to mind...

So if you are under the influence of alcohol and driving your vehicle intoxicated and are open carring what laws are broken? Drinking and carring open, is it a violation? Drinking and carring concealed, is it a violation?

Think about it as if you would be driving a car, only now add in anger, impaired judgement, and a few other things, and you have a gun on your hip... Now tell me it does not matter ;)

Regards
 
Lonny, ccw requires a permit where I am at, and if I have to go to school and l take classes, so should others who want to carry a weapon in public...

The saftey of the public deserve it IMHO...

Not bashing, asking questions that you did not answer :confused:
 
I've never seen it the other way around.
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I have. I've had it implied that I'm not doing my part for gun rights, that I'm part of the problem too because I refuse to openly carry. My response to this is: I don't carry to make a statement, I carry to protect my life and the lives of those I care for.
 
"wrong. no one is required to carry concealed, no matter what anyone tells you. if you can't see it, it's concealed. if you can, then you're carrying openly. there's no such thing as "quasi" concealed. either it is or it isn't."





First, re read what I wrote till you understand it, then go read the states CC laws.



If you have the permit and are carrying concealed, it Must not be visible, period.
 
If you have the permit and are carrying concealed, it Must not be visible, period.
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What state are you suggesting the law be looked up for? The states with the most recent discussion about OC/CC have been CO and PA.
 
I would love OC here in Florida, I signed the online petition, don't know if it did any good. Granted I want to keep my CCW right, because I think we all deserve a choice. It'd be nice if we could just get a "Dangerous Weapons Permit" that allows by permit both and either/or open or concealed carry.

I normally carry a Taurus snub nose .357 in my cell phone pocket and a Rossi .357 in my wallet pocket, I can carry my P90 Ruger but it's a hassle even with heavy denim shirts.

I like the idea of OC because I'm convinced it's a constitutional right and to not have it is an infringement of that right (2nd Amendment). Plus it would make carrying more comfortable and allow me to carry my Ruger Redhawk 4" .44 Magnum, granted loaded with .44 specials for carry SD purposes.

If I ever buy a 1911 I'd carry that instead of my .44 magnum, I enjoy my Ruger and was glad to get it from my Uncle but the ambi slide safety just leaves me feeling odd about it and carring with the safety off doesn't sit right with me for some reason, a grip safety like that on a 1911(unlocked safety) , or a trigger safety on a Glock or XD would be acceptable granted I only like Semi SDs in 10mm or .45 ACP.

I'm a little too busy with lawschool right now but once I'm a member of the bar and a working professional I am going to return to my pursuit of bringing OC to Florida, might take ten years but better ten years than never.
 
First, re read what I wrote till you understand it, then go read the states CC laws. If you have the permit and are carrying concealed, it Must not be visible, period.
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um, wrong.

§ 6109. Licenses.
(a) Purpose of license.--A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth.

(b) Place of application.--An individual who is 21 years of age or older may apply to a sheriff for a license to carry a firearm concealed on or about his person or in a vehicle within this Commonwealth. If the applicant is a resident of this Commonwealth, he shall make application with the sheriff of the county in which he resides or, if a resident of a city of the first class, with the chief of police of that city.

(c) Form of application and content.--The application for a license to carry a firearm shall be uniform throughout this Commonwealth and shall be on a form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. The form may contain provisions, not exceeding one page, to assure compliance with this section. Issuing authorities shall use only the application form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. One of the following reasons for obtaining a firearm license shall be set forth in the application: self-defense, employment, hunting and fishing, target shooting, gun collecting or another proper reason. The application form shall be dated and signed by the applicant and shall contain the following statement:

I have never been convicted of a crime of violence in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania or elsewhere. I am of sound mind and have never been committed to a mental institution. I hereby certify that the statements contained herein are true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. I understand that, if I knowingly make any false statements herein, I am subject to penalties prescribed by law. I authorize the sheriff, or his designee, or, in the case of first class cities, the chief or head of the police department, or his designee, to inspect only those records or documents relevant to information required for this application.

(d) Sheriff to conduct investigation.--The sheriff to whom the application is made shall investigate the applicant's record of criminal convictions, shall investigate whether or not the applicant is under indictment for or has ever been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment exceeding one year, shall investigate whether the applicant's character and reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety and shall investigate whether the applicant would be precluded from receiving a license under subsection (e)(1) or section 6105(h) (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms) and shall conduct a criminal background, juvenile delinquency or mental health check following the procedures set forth in section 6111 (relating to firearm ownership).

(e) Issuance of license.--

(1) A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle and shall be issued if, after an investigation not to exceed 45 days, it appears that the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license. A license shall not be issued to any of the following:



(i) An individual whose character and reputation is such that the individual would be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety.
(ii) An individual who has been convicted of an offense under the act of April 14, 1972 (P.L.233, No.64), known as The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act.
(iii) An individual convicted of a crime enumerated in section 6105.
(iv) An individual who, within the past ten years, has been adjudicated delinquent for a crime enumerated in section 6105 or for an offense under The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act.
(v) An individual who is not of sound mind or who has ever been committed to a mental institution.
(vi) An individual who is addicted to or is an unlawful user of marijuana or a stimulant, depressant or narcotic drug.
(vii) An individual who is a habitual drunkard.
(viii) An individual who is charged with or has been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year except as provided for in section 6123 (relating to waiver of disability or pardons).
(ix) A resident of another state who does not possess a current license or permit or similar document to carry a firearm issued by that state if a license is provided for by the laws of that state, as published annually in the Federal Register by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury under 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(19) (relating to definitions).
(x) An alien who is illegally in the United States.
(xi) An individual who has been discharged from the armed forces of the United States under dishonorable conditions.
(xii) An individual who is a fugitive from justice. This subparagraph does not apply to an individual whose fugitive status is based upon nonmoving or moving summary offense under Title 75 (relating to vehicles.)
(xiii) An individual who is otherwise prohibited from possessing, using, manufacturing, controlling, purchasing, selling or transferring a firearm as provided by section 6105.

(3) The license shall bear the name, address, date of birth, race, sex, citizenship, Social Security number, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes and signature of the licensee; the signature of the sheriff issuing the license; the reason for issuance; and the period of validation. The sheriff may also require a photograph of the licensee on the license. The original license shall be issued to the applicant. The first copy of the license shall be forwarded to the commissioner within seven days of the date of issue, and a second copy shall be retained by the issuing authority for a period of six years.

(f) Term of license.--


A license to carry a firearm issued under subsection (e) shall be valid throughout this Commonwealth for a period of five years unless sooner revoked.
At least 60 days prior to the expiration of each license, the issuing sheriff shall send to the licensee an application for renewal of license. Failure to receive a renewal application shall not relieve a licensee from the responsibility to renew the license.

(g) Grant or denial of license.--Upon the receipt of an application for a license to carry a firearm, the sheriff shall, within 45 days, issue or refuse to issue a license on the basis of the investigation under subsection (d) and the accuracy of the information contained in the application. If the sheriff refuses to issue a license, the sheriff shall notify the applicant in writing of the refusal and the specific reasons. The notice shall be sent by certified mail to the applicant at the address set forth in the application.

(h) Fee.--The fee for a license to carry a firearm is $19. This includes a renewal notice processing fee of $1.50. This includes an administrative fee of $5 under section 14(2) of the act of July 6, 1984 (P.L.614, No.127), known as the Sheriff Fee Act. No fee other than that provided by this paragraph or the Sheriff Fee Act may be assessed by the sheriff for the performance of any background check made pursuant to this act. The fee is payable to the sheriff to whom the application is submitted and is payable at the time of application for the license. Except for the administrative fee of $5 under section 14(2) of the Sheriff Fee Act, all other fees shall be refunded if the application is denied but shall not be refunded if a license is issued and subsequently revoked. A person who sells or attempts to sell a license to carry a firearm for a fee in excess of the amounts fixed under this subsection commits a summary offense.

(i) Revocation.--A license to carry firearms may be revoked by the issuing authority for good cause. A license to carry firearms shall be revoked by the issuing authority for any reason stated in subsection (e)(1) which occurs during the term of the permit. Notice of revocation shall be in writing and shall state the specific reason for revocation. Notice shall be sent by certified mail, and, at that time, a copy shall be forwarded to the commissioner. An individual whose license is revoked shall surrender the license to the issuing authority within five days of receipt of the notice. An individual whose license is revoked may appeal to the court of common pleas for the judicial district in which the individual resides. An individual who violates this section commits a summary offense.

(j) Immunity.--A sheriff who complies in good faith with this section shall be immune from liability resulting or arising from the action or misconduct with a firearm committed by any individual to whom a license to carry a firearm has been issued.

(k) Reciprocity.--The Attorney General may enter into reciprocity agreements with other states providing for the mutual recognition of each state's license to carry a firearm.
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now, read what i posted, and find me the statute where it says you must conceal. i'll wait.
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find it yet? i thought not. i found myself in a debate this morning with two sheriff's deputies in Dunmore, PA, about this very subject. they also insisted it was illegal to OC if a had an LTCF, as if having one compelled me to conceal.

"officer, it it really was illegal, you'd have arrested me by now."

end of story. once again, it's either concealed, or it isn't. a license is required for one, and not the other, except for in Philadelphia, where it's required either way. like the song says: "...ain't no half-steppin..."
 
Harley Quinn said:
Lonny, ccw requires a permit where I am at, and if I have to go to school and l take classes because I live an an area that generally has no respect for liberty and RKBA and most folks here have been trained in this way of thinking, so should others who want to carry a weapon in public...
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Modified a tad.

Given the real purpose behind RKBA, wouldn't you say it's kind of odd to require people get licensed by the very entity that RKBA is meant to keep honest and in check? Seems to defeat the purpose.


The saftey of the public deserve it IMHO...
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IMNSHO, this is irrelevant with regard to liberty and RKBA. The safety of the public isn't helped when real criminals break dang near every gun law on the books (exaggerating, but you get the point) and do harm to their own kind as well as regular joes.

This training and licensing would have what kind of effect? If I'm not mistaken, Alaska, Vermont, and Arizona don't have an inordinate amount of violence compared to DC, Chicago, New York, etc.
 
It is an interesting discussion...To bad middle ground is always hard to find.

What I see most of the time by those who are against freedoms and regulation is something similar to this:

***An autarky is an economy that is self-sufficient and does not take part in international trade, or severely limits trade with the outside world. Likewise it refers to an ecosystem not affected by influences from the outside, which relies entirely on its own resources. In the economic meaning, it is also referred to as a closed economy.***

So if we have a state that is totally right-wing and another very far to the left, one is conservative and the other is liberal, which would you rather live in?

Funny state of affairs as they are now, Thomas Jefferson was a liberal:confused: Hmmm. Bush (number 1) stopped importing such things as AK's and Daewoo's, but we export weapons to anyone willing to buy, who have governments that are not the best to live under, you know laws and the people ;)

Truly an interesting situation, that will never be understood IMHO

This is interesting, check out the 25 most dangerous cities :

http://phoenix.about.com/od/crime/a/dangerous.htm

Here is another opinion on states and liveability:

http://phoenix.about.com/cs/living/a/livable2004.htm

;)
 
gbran said:
More and more people are starting to OC, so many that I predict congress will pass a national ban on the practice. Just a hunch.
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Every time I hear someone express their disapproval for OC this way I can't help but to wonder if it is what they secretly want.

Georgia is an OC state, so you'd think there would be unity on this topic at our state forum, right? Nothing could be further from the truth. Needless to say I hear this sentiment expressed far too often, sadly.
 
RaisedByWolves said:
Could be, but in PA if you carry concealed, it must be concealed. Theres no quasi concealed allowed due to OC laws.
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You have it reversed, Sir. Except in Philadelphia, PA is an open carry state and no license or permit is required to open carry. Which means there is no requirement to conceal. The requirement is that you need a permit IF you wish to carry concealed. However, if your concealment is less than 100 percent effective, since open carry is legal everywhere except Philly w/o a license (and I believe legal in Philly with a license but I wouldn't test it), if the breeze lifts your jacket or your gun butt "prints" ... no harm, no foul.

RBW, three people have said that your interpretation of the PA law is incorrect. Rather than tell the whole world to "read the statute," I respectfully submit that it is your responsibility to cite the statute you believe requires 100 percent concealmant.
 
I believe legal in Philly with a license but I wouldn't test it
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you need to have a LTCF to carry in Philly, open or concealed. however, most Philly PD have made it public knowledge that they will stop and detain anyone they see OCing, and find a way to revoke their LTCF.
 
You know, what's funny is that it's always the concealed carry only crowd that bashes OC'ers and admonishes them for open carry. I've never seen it the other way around.
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That's not been my experience, I've seen it both ways and I've seen a lot of O.C.ers act like they're more RKBA than thou.
 
Treo,
Glad to have you on board with OC.
The crowd here hates the idea, but you are right. We need to be ever vigilant and gain ground so that our RTKBA is always here.
Good Job!
Mike7465
OCs when ever he needs to, and darn proud of it.
 
And, if you are an "OC person", be aware that it is remotely possible that you are a target by BG's who might want to either 1) take your weapon, or 2) neutralize you first, then continue with their robbery/whatever.
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And, if you are an OC person, be aware that it is remotely possible that as soon as the BG's see your weapon, they will move onto a place where the threat of an armed defender doesn't exist.

We really don't know if either of the above scenerios have ever played out.

Here is an article by Tom Gresham on Open Carry.

http://www.guntalk.com/site.php?pageID=15&newsID=50

bob

Yes, another one who much prefers OC to CC.
 
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