Cheap defense ammo?

[chopinbloc]

An article I wrote on the subject:

Why does each round of defense ammo have to cost as much as a taco? Do I really need to spend $1.25 a round or more for decent defense ammunition?

Can low cost ammunition be relied upon to perform when you need it? It’s fairly well known that plain, ball ammo is less than ideal for defense. It doesn’t expand and, in pistol calibers, it doesn’t fragment. It’s also pretty well known that modern defense ammunition is extremely reliable, very accurate in most firearms, and more terminally effective than anything that has come before. There are quite a few great loads out there that can expand and/or fragment as they are designed to do across a wide range of velocities and even intermediate barriers. But Gold Dot, TSX, and the like are very expensive.

What good is it to have excellent terminal performance if I can’t afford to fill two magazines, let alone purchase enough to verify point of impact and assure myself that the ammunition works well in my own firearm? ammunition

What if I could buy ammunition that costs the same or only slightly more than the cheap practice ammo that I already buy and get good terminal effect from it?

The rest is here, if you're interested.

 

[LockedBreech]

There are a few areas I'm not willing to pinch pennies. Once you get past the somewhat pricey "proving period" of 200 rounds to make sure a round feeds in your gun, defense ammo is not expensive at all. I replace mine every 2 years, in all my guns. Since I know the round works I only need enough to refill the magazine and backup magazine. This only ends up being $100-200 a year, maybe a few hundred more if you have a more varied carry/nightstand/car rotation. That's not bad for something that might save your life.

I totally understand where your post is coming from. Firearms in general aren't a cheap proposition. But if that awful day ever comes where I pull a trigger in need, I want my target to be hit by Gold Dots or HST. Nothing that's "almost" as good. I want accuracy, low flash, predictability of aim, consistent velocity, and proven penetration and expansion, so the only thing I have to worry about is getting my shots on target, not if my bullets will work.

 

[alexander45]

May try atomic ammo it's made here in az it's cheap compared to other defense ammo,
the only caveat is I hear there hand gun ammo is loaded a bit too hot and will some times leave signs of over pressure.
but there rifle particulary the 308 is supposed to be excellent.
I'm currently waiting on a box of 50 45acps to try out. Ran me about 90 cents a round I think

 

[chopinbloc]

That also means you're training with ammunition that has a different POI, recoil impulse, and flash. And with only 200 rounds, it means that you are comfortable with a statistical sample that's basically telling you that you probably have a less than 0.5% chance of failure.

You're right, though, there aren't very many effective, affordable loads in handgun cartridges. My defense pistols are loaded with Gold Dot. My home defense rifle is loaded with PPU 75 gr BTHP. I was able to purchase enough of it to have a few thousand rounds down range and still fill a dozen magazines. It shoots into less than 1.5 MOA from my rifles and has excellent terminal effect.

If you read to the end of the article, you'll note that I say the point of the article isn't that you should not spend money on premium ammo, but that there are some loads out there that are both effective and affordable.

 

[wally]

Exactly where the bullet impacts on the target will have far more influence on its effectiveness than which bullet it happens to be. Having near 100% function as possible in you gun and being able to afford to verify it is true is the next most important thing.

I don't worry about the ammo in my carry guns -- its good stuff I got at a good price and enough of it to verify its function in my guns. I don't chase "better" ammo.

 

[Haxby]

A year or two ago, I decided I wanted some new 357 magnum 158 grain factory loads. I was willing to buy premium ammo, but I didn't find any. A local store had some Fiocchi, 50 to a box, reasonably priced.
It is accurate, consistent, and loaded with Hornady XTP bullets. I think it's probably just about as good as the pricey stuff.

 

[stchman]

Ammo makers use the excuse to make more money. I would be willing to bet that the bullets are just marginally more expensive to make than FMJ.

 

[NoVA Shooter]

You get what you pay for.

I know things aren’t that black and white and it’s not always true, but for the most part with ammo, there’s a reason why a round of ammo costs more. Usually, in manufacturing, a large component of the cost differential between two brands (or lines within the same brand) is the quality control put into the process (both in terms of allowed tolerances and testing/process improvement). Because of that, I’m suspect of ‘cheap’ self-defense ammo. That doesn’t mean that the cheap ammo isn’t good, just not good enough when my life might be on the line. The difference between ammo that fails 1 time out of 1000 and 1 time out of 2000 may be fine for the range and it probably would not factor in a SD situation (the chance that you’re in a SD situation AND your ammo fails is very remote), but in a chaotic, stressful, life and death situation, why not try to minimize the unknowns.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Exactly where the bullet impacts on the target will have far more influence on its effectiveness than which bullet it happens to be.

+1

Buy a quality hollow point and make sure it feeds reliably in your gun and is accurate. It doesn't have to be the most expensive thing out there.

 

[LockedBreech]

That also means you're training with ammunition that has a different POI, recoil impulse, and flash. And with only 200 rounds, it means that you are comfortable with a statistical sample that's basically telling you that you probably have a less than 0.5% chance of failure.

I think the different training ammo objection is valid but there aren't really any solutions other than feeding a gun nothing but carry ammo, which is just not realistic. I think you're correct but I think that'll always be an issue. It'll never be as cheap to make high-quality hollowpoint ammo as it is to make plinker ammo. A middle ground would likely compromise too much in both directions. It's an issue and I don't see a solution for it.

As for a less than 0.5% chance of failure, yep, I'm 100% okay with that. That's probably better odds than I have driving a car 2-3 times a day, better odds than I have with the food I eat, etc.

 

[Saddlebag Preacher]

I know I will get some flak for this, but here goes. I shoot and carry WWB JHP .40 S&W. My reasons are simple, I can't afford a whole lot on the expensive stuff to feed my needs. I use a Glock 23 most times for my EDC and evrey payday I go down to my local walley world and buy 2 boxes. Sometimes I get a box of FMJ if they don't have the JHP, but most times they have it. Then, every week, I go out to my back yard range and shoot some defensive drills. After hundreds of rounds, I have not had one failure, it is accurate and I trust it.

I also sometimes carry a pocket 9MM and shoot WWB in it with never a hiccup.

I know the more expensive rounds may or may not do a better job, but I can't afford to spend the money and cut my shooting practice times. Sometimes ya do what ya gotta do.

When I was a cop years ago and we transitioned to 9MM, we used Federal 115 JHP with good results, (saved my life). Now I read where it's considered just decent range ammo. Maybe I'm just getting too old.

 

[LockedBreech]

For what it's worth, Saddlebag, my life is so darn busy and I've been moving around so much that I'm lucky if I get out to shoot more than once every month or two. With your amount of practice you'd easily smoke me and my HSTs/Gold Dots. I can't afford to downgrade my ammo because the frequency of my practice is already significantly subpar.

 

[Onward Allusion]

A year or two ago, I decided I wanted some new 357 magnum 158 grain factory loads. I was willing to buy premium ammo, but I didn't find any. A local store had some Fiocchi, 50 to a box, reasonably priced.
It is accurate, consistent, and loaded with Hornady XTP bullets. I think it's probably just about as good as the pricey stuff.

Fiocchi is one of those underrated brands. They are probably one of a few brands that you can use for practice and carry (the XTP's). Fiocchi is pretty much all I have for my 9mm SD stash.

 

[Dr.Rob]

One of the reasons I used 9mm 115gr silver tips is that they were inexpensive compared to other premium brands they were reasonably priced and had the same POI as 115 ball ammo.

"Budget' priced Federal 50 rd boxes of jhp that you can afford to shoot is far better than NOT PRACTICING. (Which, let's be honest, a lot of people buy a box of premium and never shoot it.)


As for rifles? Any M193 will do in a pinch if you don't have a soft point. Winchester, Prvi and Fiocchi all have reasonably priced 55gr soft points. Shoot a few so you know where they hit, compare them to your 'blasting ammo'.

(I found Winchester 55 soft points to shoot tighter than M193 in my Colt, but lower on paper at 50 yards than M193, I keep a magazine of this around.)

 

[sauer1911]

For home defense, I NEVER go cheap.

Now, inexpensive and the best bang for your buck maybe.

But NEVER cheap, it your defense your taking about.

be safe

 

[herrwalther]

$1 per round is (right now inflation etc) a good price rule of thumb to pay for quality self defense ammo. However I am not opposed to getting bulk JHP boxes from Remington or Winchester of their non-LE super duper tactical awesome-sauce premium self defense ammo. The budget JHP goes through the same reliability testing in the selected firearm as the expensive stuff. More so since more rounds come in a bulk box compared to the standard 20/25 round boxes of the higher end stuff.

 

[MedWheeler]

$1 per round is (right now inflation etc) a good price rule of thumb to pay for quality self defense ammo.

I never base "rules of thumb" solely on price.

If I did that, a "good quality" round of .22LR would have been nearly a buck itself two years ago.

My guns are loaded with run-o'the-mill JHP (115-grain JHP in my 9mm, for example) ammunition.

If I fire one in self-defense, my money (and my life, I know) is on my attacker(s) surrendering, fleeing, or being rendered unable to continue being a threat. That's the way it goes down in civilian defensive shootings.

 

[chopinbloc]

I think that last bit is important to emphasize. We want to use the best tools that we can for defense but sometimes we get wrapped around the axle on the details. Even if the ammo that you choose fails to expand or fragment as designed, it's not as though it turns into a Nerf dart. Shot placement is the most important factor....


....If you even have to fire your weapon at all.

 

[strambo]

At defensive handgun ranges (3-15 yds), I haven't found the difference between my 9mm Gold Dots and any old ball practice ammo to be a factor for training. I also handload 124g ball at about 1100 fps which is almost exactly standard pressure 124g GD and 150 fps or less behind the 124g +P.

Depends on the gun though, I'm primarily thinking of my P226, in my K9, the difference in recoil from practice ball to +P GDs is noticeable. Only standard pressure GDs are currently in my carry rotation at this moment though.

I also have a few hundred rounds of the PPU 75g 5.56 ammo for my ARs, good example of a less expensive, but terminally effective round.

 

[herrwalther]

I never base "rules of thumb" solely on price.

I was not implying 1$ per round is what you should pay for SD ammo but what you can expect to pay for SD ammo in 20/25 round boxes. I was in a bit of a rush typing that post.

 

[chopinbloc]

strambo, that's exactly where I'm at in the pice vs. quality spectrum. Other than 9BPLE, I don't know of any low cost handgun ammunition that is reasonably effective and hand loading can really help. You can produce a training load that replicates your carry load in every way at lower cost than factory blasting ammo. You can even select the same bullet in some cases, which can let you load up thousands of rounds for training and SHTF at reasonable cost.

 

[MedWheeler]

Herrwalther, duly noted. Fair enough (post 20.)

 

[strambo]

It isn't mutually exclusive...shot placement or premium ammo. The way some of the posts are worded makes it seem that way though, to paraphrase: "I concentrate on shot placement and don't worry about the most expensive HPs."

Well, I also concentrate on shot placement and use premium ammo to ensure I get consistent 12"-16" penetration and expansion up to .58" after going through heavy clothing. Why not have it all? Once you have established reliability, a couple mags of premium ammo is under $40 and you can rotate it every other year and be fine.

A long time ago I got 250 rounds of LE reject Gold Dots cheap, they all fired 100% in my 2 carry guns and it was an inexpensive way to establish reliability.

 

[Warp]

Exactly ^

Far too many false dichotomies thrown about.

Using better ammo doesn't mean you aren't working on shot placement or the legality of when lethal force is necessary/justified.

Ammo makers use the excuse to make more money. I would be willing to bet that the bullets are just marginally more expensive to make than FMJ.

You can worry about how much it costs the manufacturer to make...I'll worry about the effectiveness of the round in real life use.

I don't care if they can make premium bonded JHP's for the example same price as cheap round nose FMJ...I know the good bonded JHP is what I want in my carry gun and I'll pay for it. It's not like it's super expensive, anyway. Just make sure to buy the 50 round boxes you can order online from various retailers.

Gold Dot or HST for me (for service cartridge semi autos)

 

[chopinbloc]

My point in writing the article is that there are some choices out there that are affordable and effective. If you read through it, the two examples given are .223 Fiocchi 55 gr PSP, which was pretty effective, and 9x18mm Silver Bear 115 gr JHP, which was a dismal failure.

I think that most of us can agree that Gold Dot or HST should be the first choice for a defensive handgun, followed closely by some of the other modern JHP that meets FBI standards.

That said, ball ammo still puts holes in bad guys. It's also worth noting that the difference between the effectiveness of an "obsolete" design like Hydrashok and HST is much less than the difference between a hit to the descending aorta and a hit to the lung two inches to the left.

I don't want to stifle the open exchange of ideas, but I was really hoping that we could talk about what choices exist out there that have good performance and affordable price, rather than just split hairs over some of the same things that gun folks have been arguing for the last three decades.