Cheap defense ammo?

[Warp]

For starters I personally think there is a big difference here between pistols and rifles. As the box o truth guy would say, rifles are rifles and pistols are pistols.

At private citizen defensive ranges I don't think you can go 'wrong' with 55gr ball 5.56 (or whatever).

But handguns are weak and ineffective as a general rule, and can be almost pathetic at stopping a violent attacker right now, especially with ball ammo.

In other words, I think ammo selection (quality JHP vs ball ammo or whatever) is far more important for a handgun than a rifle.

And it also seems that there is a big difference between the big name top performing defensive hollow points and 'the rest'.


But for a specific recommendation like OP might be looking for...Federal 9BPLE would be my vote for a bit less expensive (sgammo for example gets good deals on it sometimes) but pretty good option in 9mm...and it has an extension track record of success on the street, from cold weather (Illinois state police) to hot weather (US border patrol)

 

[gamestalker]

Honestly, I know a lot of individuals trust their lives to factory offerings, but I've never had good reliable results, well, at least not reliable enough to trust them to defend my life with. Once I started reloading more than 30 yrs. ago I have had exactly zero failures of any type.

In this respect, I like to run Gold Dots as my first choice for my 9mm's, .40's, but XTP's have been just as good in penetration and expansion tests I've conducted. When one considers the initial investment to start reloading, it sounds discouraging. But truth be known, it allows you to thoroughly test for firearm function and performance at a fraction of the cost of buying factory.

On the high side of component cost, and using a less than economical powder, such as Longshot, I can shoot a top notch 9mm combination, to include Gold Dots, for under $15 per 50 round box, and XTP's can reduce that cost quite dramatically.

Seriously, if you are that concerned or impeded by the expense of self defense ammunition, it's time to consider reloading.

GS

 

[Ignition Override]

Statistically, isn't every self-defense shooting situation in the (US) civilian world within less then fifteen feet, with exceptions of a few percent?

If this is basically the situation, then how significant are the points of impact differences between Remington .380 ammo and the priciest .380 gourmet brands out of a Sig 232 or Kahr from fifteen-twenty feet?
My general impression is that situational awareness/recognition of the human threat could be many times more critical.

 

[Warp]

Statistically, isn't every self-defense shooting situation in the (US) civilian world within less then fifteen feet, with exceptions of a few percent?

If this is basically the situation, then how significant are the points of impact differences between Remington .380 ammo and the priciest .380 gourmet brands out of a Sig 232 or Kahr from fifteen-twenty feet? My general impression is that situational awareness/recognition of the threat could be many times more critical.

The vast majority are fairly close.

I have yet to find a point of impact difference for a handgun that was off from any other round by enough to take into consideration. I do test before carrying to make sure, but they've all been essentially the same, or so close that it's not going to matter.

But, again, false dichotomy. It's not like using different ammo means you don't have situational awareness or threat recognition...not sure what you are going for with that comment

 

[chopinbloc]

If you just want to play the odds, it doesn't matter what you carry because you probably won't even have to shoot. For that matter, you probably won't even need a gun.

 

[Warp]

If you just want to play the odds, it doesn't matter what you carry because you probably won't even have to shoot. For that matter, you probably won't even need a gun.

Without context I'm not sure why you are posting this.

 

[chopinbloc]

The context is this discussion we're having here.

Statistically, isn't every self-defense shooting situation in the (US) civilian world within less then fifteen feet, with exceptions of a few percent?

 

[Warp]

The context is this discussion we're having here.

Have you tested any ammo you thought you might carry in your pistol only to find that the point of impact varied too much from other ammo? That's the bottom line here. And I don't think that is a common occurrence.

 

[chopinbloc]

Yes. The POI for 125 gr .357 is dramatically different than 158 gr at 25 yards but, as mentioned above, it's unlikely that we would ever need to shoot that far.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I've been thinking of picking up a box of the Winchester white box .357 magnum 110 grain JHP loads at the local Wal-Mart as they are priced well. They are marked "personal protection" on the box, but I'm not sure how well they actually do. The price IS tempting though!

 

[Warp]

Yes. The POI for 125 gr .357 is dramatically different than 158 gr at 25 yards but, as mentioned above, it's unlikely that we would ever need to shoot that far.

Even if you did, would a center of mass hold (on an adult sized exposed torso) land you a hit with either one?

 

[JR24]

At the ranges I practice defensive drills (<15 yards, variable distances), in my hands, doing those defensive drills the POI between my defensive ammo and practice FMJ or JHP is negligible.

With my eyes, offhand, any of my autos at 25 yards I'm happy if I'm grouping 6-8 inches, which I'm often not. As long as I can hit COM, I'm OK at that range, in my opinion.

My hunting revolvers is another story, but that's not the discussion.

 

[deadin]

Here you go........

 

[mavracer]

Even if you did, would a center of mass hold (on an adult sized exposed torso) land you a hit with either one?

As long as we're playing what if, what if you don't have the entire torso exposed?
My SP101 shoot's about 8" lower @ 25 yards with full house 125 than it does with my prefered 180gr load.

 

[mac66]

Good articles, thanks to the OP for writing and posting it. Going to have to look into that Fiochi .223 stuff.

IMO, It is more important to poke holes in vital areas than it is what you poke the hole with.

 

[strambo]

The sp101 example is extreme. Small revolver with really fast bullets vs slow and heavy. Easy fix, use practice ammo that isn't such an extreme departure from carry ammo. I bet 158g practice loads would be pretty close the the 180g carry load.

The POI differences between any premium ammo and a sensible practice load (similar weight and velocity) should be minimal.

 

[Warp]

As long as we're playing what if, what if you don't have the entire torso exposed?
My SP101 shoot's about 8" lower @ 25 yards with full house 125 than it does with my prefered 180gr load.

Do you practice/train with one and carry the other?

I'm not sure I'm understanding the issue here.

 

[grter]

Would I be wrong to figure that the better you are handling that gun the more moot the issue becomes, provided that if works (goes bang) of course.

 

[Warp]

Would I be wrong to figure that the better you are handling that gun the more moot the issue becomes, provided that if works (goes bang) of course.

Maybe, to an extent.

There are still differences in effectiveness between various rounds, all else equal.

I mean, maybe if you can put 100% of your rounds between the eyes of the attacker(s), going bang will be all that matters. Otherwise...

 

[mavracer]

I'm not sure I'm understanding the issue here.

you said

Have you tested any ammo you thought you might carry in your pistol only to find that the point of impact varied too much from other ammo? That's the bottom line here. And I don't think that is a common occurrence.

I'm mearly pointing out that at 25 yards it is quite common for there to be several inches difference between POI of different rounds and however unlikely it is it's good to know where your ammo is gonna land.

 

[Warp]

I'm mearly pointing out that at 25 yards it is quite common for there to be several inches difference between POI of different rounds and however unlikely it is it's good to know where your ammo is gonna land.

I am aware, especially with noticeably different weights (velocities) of .357 ammo (as the most common occurrence for most people as far as I can tell).

Yes it is good to know.

What I am implying is that for defensive handgun use buying ammo and having a -significant for defensive purposes- variation in POI between that defensive ammo and what you shoot most of the time (training/practice) seems to be uncommon.

 

[mavracer]

What I am implying is that for defensive handgun use buying ammo and having a -significant for defensive purposes- variation in POI between that defensive ammo and what you shoot most of the time (training/practice) seems to be uncommon.

It depends a lot on what you consider this to be. If you're in the pie plate at 7 yards is good enough camp, sure any ammo will prolly be close enough to POA, but then again if you really just want to play the odds why carry at all?
To me it's not about the odds it's about the stakes, so I'd prefer to know where my carry ammo is gonna hit at any range I think I can make the shot.

 

[Warp]

It depends a lot on what you consider this to be. If you're in the pie plate at 7 yards is good enough camp, sure any ammo will prolly be close enough to POA, but then again if you really just want to play the odds why carry at all?
To me it's not about the odds it's about the stakes, so I'd prefer to know where my carry ammo is gonna hit at any range I think I can make the shot.

I don't know why you keep repeating the "odds vs stakes" or the "I'd like to know" thing. I never said nor implied that you shouldn't verify point of impact. I don't think anybody else did either.

Since we are so into the subject now...what is your, specific, requirement for POI difference between regular practice/training ammo and carry ammo? Can you give us a specific example of ammunition types (and pistol) that failed that requirement when you tested them?

 

[Blue Thunder]

I got lucky a few years ago and bought 2500 rounds of Winchester Ranger T 127GR +P+ from two internet suppliers. I have a set of Twin G-19's that I have used in more than 5 Gun fighting classes. The last two classes I have shot just under 1000 rounds of the Ranger T and around 250 rounds of Remington Golden Sabers. All have functioned with 100% reliability. I carry Ranger T's in my G-19's and do not have anymore of the Golden Sabers. This reliability is good enough for me to put my 100% faith in what I carry and shoot.

 

[Panzerschwein]

There are some good cheap defense loads out there.

If I recall, Wolf makes a hollow point 7.62x39mm load that works very well and expands greatly in tissue. Very effective against an enemy attacker, and can be had for about $25 cents a shot.