Chewing the fat at the LGS, about aiming

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gym

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I passed by my local gun shop today and we started talking guns, "what else". Everyone basically agreed that in a holdup or instant situation like a home invasion armed robbery etc., not one of us use their sights. It's all about drawing and firing as fast as possible. Point shooting, Punching through or what ever different terms everyone used, it amounted to the same thing. Now all of us are 40 year or more veterans of carrying a gun full time.
Being that the sight is there of course you are going to see it, but having thought about it for a while, I don't ever remember using my sites when I had to draw and fire, or draw and hold. So is too much emphases, and practice put on the sights in a combat situation?
Also I heard twice in 2 days in 2 different gun stores, someone say that they don't chamber a round, on their single action 1911 type pistol. The excuse was it's too dangerous, the one guy summed it up best when he told the woman, "your dead" stop talking.
One said he would never be in a situation where it made a difference, the answer to that was, then don't carry a gun. Two interesting topics, what do you think .
 
gym said:
...So is too much emphases, and practice put on the sights in a combat situation? Also I heard twice in 2 days in 2 different gun stores, someone say that they don't chamber a round, on their single action 1911 type pistol. The excuse was it's too dangerous, the one guy summed it up best when he told the woman, "your dead" stop talking.
One said he would never be in a situation where it made a difference, the answer to that was, then don't carry a gun. Two interesting topics, what do you think .
Click to expand...


What do I think? I think, "Good God, not again."


 
When I remember to, I shoot handgun without using the sights. Standard silhouette target, five or so yards distant. Gut, chest, head. Generally center mass, since that's the most practical to try and knock em down. Otherwise, the Uzi is an excellent shoot from the hip weapon.
 
BSA1 said:
40 years of carrying a gun is not the same as 40 years of gunfighter experience.
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nobody lives thru 40 years of gunfighting. most of this is just LGS talk and these situations that require one millionith of a second of cat like reactions will never happen. most of the time I see old codgers with the reflexes of a drugged sloth arguing over that lol. I do not carry and I can chamber a round in a 1911 while pulling it out up to waist height. without arthritis in your hands a little practice is all it takes
 
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I got reamed on this discussion about point shooting quite a while back, so I'm hesitant to take another go at it. But regarding carrying on an empty chamber, in 40+ years of carrying every single day, I have never carried on an empty chamber. I won't elaborate on the specific incidents or circumstances that I've personally encountered that support my reasoning, other than to say, that I don't things would have turned out well for me if I had been carrying on an empty chamber.

But I also contend that professional training and continued practice sessions are a "must do". Just because I've been driving for over 40 yrs. and haven't had an accident or citation in more than 25 yrs., doesn't mean I'm capable of jumping into a Nascar and completing a 200 mph lap without a high probability of crashing. Training and practice!

GS
 
BSA, how does one get 40 yrs of gun fighting experience. Do you go out daily and have a gun fight? Have you been in a gunfight? I think that those of us that have, can say it's more luck and Gods will as to who lives and dies. All one can do is be ready. Each person has their own way of training or not, but saying that one has 40 years of gun fighting experience means nothing, as there is no such thing. If you take it seriously enough to carry for a long period of time, you should know enough to do the basic things necessary if such a thing should happen, like chambering your weapon.
 
gym said:
BSA, how does one get 40 yrs of gun fighting experience. Do you go out daily and have a gun fight? Have you been in a gunfight? I think that those of us that have, can say it's more luck and Gods will as to who lives and dies. All one can do is be ready. Each person has their own way of training or not, but saying that one has 40 years of gun fighting experience means nothing, as there is no such thing. If you take it seriously enough to carry for a long period of time, you should know enough to do the basic things necessary if such a thing should happen, like chambering your weapon.
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exactly gym member it is mainly thru luck you survive these things regardless of LGS bull and movie fantasy. I can chamber a round in an 1911 before it gets to the aiming point. if you cant do that like you say use a revolver or a semi with a lot of switches and buttons. a double action shot from an auto under stress is not worth much
 
gym said:
BSA, how does one get 40 yrs of gun fighting experience....
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You're missing the point. The real point is that 40, 50 or 100 years of just carrying a gun around doesn't necessarily mean much. I carry a fountain pen every day and have for over 40 years, and I'm still not qualified to teach fancy calligraphy. I've carried keys for well over 40 years, and I'm still not a locksmith. I've carried a knife for over 40 years, and that doesn't make me a knife fighter. Carrying a brick for 40 years won't make you a journeyman mason.

Carrying something only means that you can carry it -- not necessarily that you can use it.

That's one reason good training is beneficial. It's an experience multiplier.

In the various classes I've taken over the years I've had training with perhaps 20+ instructors. Each of them had a wealth of personal experience, and each of them has also had training with and by other experienced instructors. Knowledge and experience is shared, the lessons learn reflect the aggregate of hundreds of person-years of experience.

gym said:
...If you take it seriously enough to carry for a long period of time, you should know enough to do the basic things...
Click to expand...
One might hope so, but one also can't count on it.
 
Cmon Frank. I clicked on 7 of those threads and they were all 2-5 years old. There was nothing wrong at all with this OP. We will have some repeat discussions on here. If not we will run out of things to talk about. There is nothing at all wrong with him bringing this forward for a fresh conversation.

Good question OP, and always a good topic.
 
Agsalaska said:
Cmon Frank. I clicked on 7 of those threads and they were all 2-5 years old...
Click to expand...
There are 24 threads altogether. One "loaded chamber thread is from 2013 and two from 2011. Of the "sight" thread, five are from 2011 and one from 2012.

But do you really think anything has changed?
 
There are 24 threads altogether. One "loaded chamber thread is from 2013 and two from 2011. Of the "sight" thread, five are from 2011 and one from 2012.

But do you really think anything has changed?
Click to expand...

Just close off the sight to everything but current gun-related news stories and newly released gun-related gear then. Everything else has been discussed already.
 
beatledog7 said:
Just close off the sight to everything but current gun-related news stories and newly released gun-related gear then. Everything else has been discussed already.
Click to expand...
Exactly, If you do not allow topics to be refreshed then nobody will post. If nobody posts the sight dies. People come here to have current conversations about everything, not to read posts from 2008.
 
I can't speak for others that I don't know. Anyone who knows me knows I have been shooting guns for 60 years. I have been carrying then since I was 23 and got my NYC carry. I started competitive combat training in the early 70's I shot against the NYPD and FBI, pistol teams, I assume and know that many here have similar experiences.
I may not be Wyatt Earp at 65, but better than most, and I know my way around a pistol from my uncle who was a gunsmith, so when someone starts to critique my skill before asking, or even considering my skill level, and experience it kind of annoys me.
Even eluding to carrying a gun means nothing unless you have gun fighting experience. What is that?
I was into guns when they were not popular or even spoken about in many places, not every person is an authority, but few have had to use a gun. That puts a whole new meaning on it. Most say well I think I would do this or that but don't really know if they would, or just freeze like a deer in the headlights. So assume that the person with whom you are addressing may know something you don't.
There are many who carry a gun, who should not, they have neither the skill or ability to properly use it if it became necessary, and could get themselves and others killed.
We see them at the range, by the time they move it's tomorrow. They shoot an look to see where the bullet went, at 50 feet away.
between bad basics, and lack of discipline they are a danger to everyone around them.
You can take all the classes in the world, and until someone actually shoots at you, or try's to. it don't mean a thing unless you have been there.
Practical knowledge that comes from years of street incidents, trumps classroom teaching although a combination of both is best.
You can only learn so much as a student, to master it you must partake in it
I can't explain fear to someone, nor can I teach them how to overcome it. Only how to use the weapon, if they do it properly good for them, but most folks don't perform well under that kind of duress. I learned from every encounter I have had, mainly not to blink, if you need to shoot you shoot, the decision to do so is one of the trickiest things for most folks, it's really a no brainer if you have been there. But that takes experience.
Sometime we all tend to overcomplicate what we do on a daily basis, "it's human nature". It's really not that hard once you have a good foundation.
While out with my wife today, I saw at least 2 old guys who I easily could have disarmed in a matter of seconds, that is what bothers me, the false sense of security of the part time gunslinger. By the way it was next to Wall-Mart, lol
 
Frank...
I've been drinking a bottle of water while reading these posts...
Coincidently.. the first two posts you wrote made that water come out of my nose...
Hah!... fancy calligraphy.
 
gym said:
...Practical knowledge that comes from years of street incidents, trumps classroom teaching although a combination of both is best....
Click to expand...
Practical knowledge from experience is good, but only if you survive the experience. Good training and preparation can increase the likelihood that you will.
 
Coincidently.. the first two posts you wrote made that water come out of my nose...
Click to expand...

After all these years of drinking, you still have trouble drinking and reading at the same time. (LOL)

After 50 years of shooting, I never had to kill anyone. Does that mean I can't? Not sure, but I would never have a problem defending myself.

Jim
 
guys, frank didn't close the thread and say you're not allowed to discuss it. he just expressed a feeling common to people who have seen this argument before. like religion and politics, the two topics broached in the OP suffer from a lack of data and an excess of opinion. that's not to say we can't discuss them, and it would be great if there were something new about either to discuss, but most of us can predict where the conversation would go.


for now, the conversation needs to get back to either the two topics in the OP or be closed. we don't need to bicker about questioning each others experience.
 
To return to the topic(s) at hand...

<-snip->

I don't know what kind of "veterans" these were (40 years of carrying "full time" would be unusual for just one person, but everyone? --afterthought: a gaggle of retired LEO's?), but veteran servicemen train so that in combat, they don't have to think about their response. So just because one doesn't think about the sight doesn't necessarily mean one isn't using it. Not if you have trained properly, and enough.
 
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gym said:
I can't speak for others that I don't know. Anyone who knows me knows I have been shooting guns for 60 years. I have been carrying then since I was 23 and got my NYC carry. I started competitive combat training in the early 70's I shot against the NYPD and FBI, pistol teams, I assume and know that many here have similar experiences.
I may not be Wyatt Earp at 65, but better than most, and I know my way around a pistol from my uncle who was a gunsmith, so when someone starts to critique my skill before asking, or even considering my skill level, and experience it kind of annoys me.
Even eluding to carrying a gun means nothing unless you have gun fighting experience. What is that?
I was into guns when they were not popular or even spoken about in many places, not every person is an authority, but few have had to use a gun. That puts a whole new meaning on it. Most say well I think I would do this or that but don't really know if they would, or just freeze like a deer in the headlights. So assume that the person with whom you are addressing may know something you don't.
There are many who carry a gun, who should not, they have neither the skill or ability to properly use it if it became necessary, and could get themselves and others killed.
We see them at the range, by the time they move it's tomorrow. They shoot an look to see where the bullet went, at 50 feet away.
between bad basics, and lack of discipline they are a danger to everyone around them.
You can take all the classes in the world, and until someone actually shoots at you, or try's to. it don't mean a thing unless you have been there.
Practical knowledge that comes from years of street incidents, trumps classroom teaching although a combination of both is best.
You can only learn so much as a student, to master it you must partake in it
I can't explain fear to someone, nor can I teach them how to overcome it. Only how to use the weapon, if they do it properly good for them, but most folks don't perform well under that kind of duress. I learned from every encounter I have had, mainly not to blink, if you need to shoot you shoot, the decision to do so is one of the trickiest things for most folks, it's really a no brainer if you have been there. But that takes experience.
Sometime we all tend to overcomplicate what we do on a daily basis, "it's human nature". It's really not that hard once you have a good foundation.
While out with my wife today, I saw at least 2 old guys who I easily could have disarmed in a matter of seconds, that is what bothers me, the false sense of security of the part time gunslinger. By the way it was next to Wall-Mart, lol
Click to expand...
now there is a man gym member with a ton of experience and makes a lot of sense. 90% of people will freeze over a serious situation. you can shoot a billion rounds into one hole means nothing when a fight breaks out. I watched on TV a guy that owned a jewelry store robbed once a week. at age 50 bought a pistol and was in 9 shootouts killing a few guys. this man never fired a gun in his life and while under fire bullet holes all over the walls he calmly shot back and hit what he was aiming at. there is a guy born for that and no amount of overpriced classes could teach that
 
Aren't you supposed to use the sights for increased accuracy? Point shooting may be fine for a close immobile target, but not so effective against a moving target?
 
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