China, History, and Firearms?

[Lucky]

Thinking of the past, and if the future will resemble it...

-If the Chinese had RKBA, would the Boxer Rebellion have succeeded? Could China have resisted being subjugated altogether, if the citizens were armed?

-Was China doomed to be conquered because it's people were unarmed? And were the people doomed to be unarmed because the government feared them? And did the government fear them because their rule interfered in people's matters when not desired, and ignored them when needed?

-Will the English-speaking peoples become the equivalent of the 1800's Chinese in the future?

 

[beerslurpy]

It's a cultural issue that is far more complex than simply "armed or not." The Chinese would need to have been very different people under very different circumstances to have been armed and ready to resist. Its the wrong question to ask.

China's history and culture are mostly a geographical and climactic fluke. Since relatively primitive times, conquering and administering vast numbers of people in China was pretty easy. Easy climate for agriculture and relatively unobstructed landscape for travel made it difficult for any district to seal itself off from others and attempt lasting rebellion or self government. Any enclave that advanced sufficiently to stand against the rest of the country could just as easily conquer it all. As a result, China tends to have stable government for long periods of time. This is why they developed bureaucracy so many centuries ago and why they made so many scientific advances for a while.

When stable government exists for centuries at a time with no outside threats, there is going to be little benefit to a ruler letting his subjects be armed or trained in military matters. When the only threat to authority comes from within, the security apparatus will turn to internal matters rather than external ones. Creativity and scientific advancement produce uncertainty, so they will be suppressed. The Chinese have spent centuries breeding themselves into a herd of sheep. Is it any wonder that the europeans conquered them without effort by cutting off the head of the government and putting themselves in its place?

For contrast, consider that all of europe has been conqured maybe 2 times at most. And even then, it has been nearly impossible for any group to lay claim to all of the continent for any significant period of time. As a result, there was competition between governments for the most productive citizens and the best military and technological advancements. And thus a bunch of barbarians quickly surpassed the Chinese who had become civilized millenia earlier.

I think the past 500 years have altered a lot of ways in which these factors affect things. America's geography and climate might be seen as analogous to China in many superficial ways, but we inherited a cultural tradition from the English, who were very different. I worry that with technology as it currently is, there is really no physical barrier to us eventually choking under the weight of our own prosperity and stability as the Chinese did- it would suck if America and eventually the entire planet sunk into medicricity and tyranny because advancement and liberty produced instability.

 

[Lucky]

Ahh, I think I'm getting it. I was reading how China had civil wars where 30 million people died, and just wondered what the hell happened to all the weapons afterwards? It's a strange mixture, monks inventing martial arts because they're not allowed weapons, and massive civil wars, which had to be fought with weapons.

And you put into words what I couldn't grasp - the bureaucracy. Maybe there's a different reason why we have stable governments, but we sure as heck have the big big bureaucracies, so I guess that's why I though we seemed like China.

 

[beerslurpy]

Two things
1) China has always had an enormous population, so 30 million people is about 2-5 percent of their current population depending on the year. Have a civil war and a little famine and a little japanese brutality on the side and the numbers add up quickly. Throw in the Great Leap Forward and the 5 Year death mar... er Plan and you soon have another 60 million dead on top of that. Mao treated the people of china as tokens to be cashed in for Soviet military and industrial aid.

2) Civil war in China means two relatively small groups battling each other. Since no one is armed but the government and <insert rebel group>, either side can pretty much kill as many as they want with impunity. When everyone is an unskilled peasant laborer with the same basic skillset, human life becomes very cheap. Kill a million that disagree with you and a million sycophants gladly take their place at the dinner table.

I personally dont think anything approaching freedom will ever take root in china. The people have too much experience in tolerating tyranny and they are too insulated by culture and language to adopt Enlightenment era philosophy- even modern european governments are avoiding liberty like the plague.

 

[Standing Wolf]

The people have too much experience in tolerating tyranny and they are too insulated by culture and language to adopt Enlightenment era philosophy- even modern european governments are avoiding liberty like the plague.

I hope you're wrong, beerslurpy, but am afraid you may be right.

 

[Oleg Volk]

One of my friends said she'd carry a sidearm in America but, when travelling in China, she thinks she'd be as violent as the rest of the Chinese and so not to be trusted with a gun.

 

[jlbraun]

@lucky

I spent a month there, and was surprised that they had these massive civil wars - after which, all of the PKMs, AKs, RPGs, etc. all just disappeared. I didn't read of any confiscation programs.

However, then I realized that there are hundreds of millions of houses in rural China that remain dirt floored... I wonder where the weapons went, hmm?

 

[Thin Black Line]

Cost was a prohibitive factor for the average peasant in owning a firearm.

This is why the elitists in this country have always wanted to restrict cheap
firearms --such as the "saturday night specials." This is why they squirm as
surplus mil-arms/ammo circulate the country. This is why they always snort
that they won't ban "hunting and sporting firearms" which in the end will mean
only certain over/under shotguns that are now $10,000 will be the only ones
legal in the future. Imagine the waiting list and the price increase.....and the
prohibitive cost factor for the average serf....er, American....in the future.

 

[MikeH]

It is a mistake to assume that Chinese population in the past was as unarmed as it is today. RKBA was a non-issue to the common Chinese in the 1800s and early 1900s, because the central government did not have the ability to either protect or deny that right. It was not uncommon for towns and villages to form "self-defense squads", the equivalent of the minute men, to protect against roaming bands of thugs. Depending on the level of funding, these squads could be armed with muskets and even rifles.

 

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

I like it

good conversation....I like this kind of talk . . . why don't more people think in historical terms. I mean, really, most men talk about the most meaningless things. How cool would it be to drink a beer in a bar and talk about the boxer rebellion and the RKBA?

 

[MikeH]

Even without a cold one, it'd be fun to talk about the Boxer Rebellion.

Here are a few points from a Chinese perspective:

1. It was not a rebellion, but a self-proclaimed patriotic movement with a religious flavor that went out of control.

The stated objective of the conspirators was to eradicate unwelcome foreign influence in China, NOT to overthrow the Chinese government. Conservative elements in the Qing Court, led by Empress Dowager Cixi actually approved of the movement.

It was later characterized as a rebellion to gain some leeway in negotiations. The Qing representative claimed that declarations of war issued against 11 nations involved were made when the government was held captive by the "rebels." Hence, the Chinese government was not obliged to agree to the full demands of the victors.

2. The Boxers weren't unarmed because there was no RKBA in China.

Boxers believed that the martial arts they practiced plus religious services would make their bodies bullet-proof. Besides, since modern firearms were considered foreign, it would have been against their ideology. They had trouble arming themselves with cold steel, though.

 

[MikeH]

I spent a month there, and was surprised that they had these massive civil wars - after which, all of the PKMs, AKs, RPGs, etc. all just disappeared. I didn't read of any confiscation programs.

You've been there, so you must know that a lot of things in China isn't like what people see on the surface.

Even if privately-hoarded firearms have all been confiscated, we shouldn't forget that there are still millions and millions of rifles kept at various town and village militia units. Does the term "people's war" still ring a bell?

 

[MikeH]

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Boxerspamphlet.png

This document is over 100 years old, and definitely in public domain.

Scanned from a history book on the subject Boxer Rebellion.

The document is written in Chinese. Its contents mean (briefly):

Guizi (foreign ghosts) forgot their ancestors and have no respect for the gods
male and female Christians know no ethics
foreigners are born from incests, claiming that their eyes are blue as the "proof"
the churches in China are reasons for the drought
the boxer's can drive the foreigners out since they have special divine powers
it is not difficult to drive the foreigners out, just destroy the railrays and the telegraph poles
destroy the steamboats, and France, England, United States, Germany and Russia will tremble
get rid of the foreigners and Qing will rule the country again.


http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Boxerspamphlet.png

 

[Lucky]

Yea the Boxer Rebellion makes sense then, I hadn't considered that they wouldn't want to use firearms.

Oleg, I don't understand what your friend was saying? Sometimes people call me when I'm asleep, and I say crazy stuff because I'm not really awake. Is that what happened to her?

Mike H that militia system sounds interesting, do you know what sort of key words would be associated with it?

 

[Oleg Volk]

My friend is a good shot. She doesn't carry a sidearm because she relies on God and her own common sense for protection. She feels it would be OK for her to carry Stateside but not when travelling in China, because Chinese culture and people are too violent and they'd misuse guns. That's as close an understanding of the position as I got.

 

[MikeH]

Mike H that militia system sounds interesting, do you know what sort of key words would be associated with it?

That would be People's Militia. Here's a brief introduction with some interesting propaganda posters:
http://www.iisg.nl/~landsberger/pla6.html

 

[Lucky]

Thx Mike. I'm just starting to understand how regional China is. Recently I was talking to a guy from the Su-Tra (4 mountain) area.

Oleg, lol, I mis-understood I was reading it like, "I don't know if I could resist killing Chinese people." Walking down the street and Bam!, "Darn, I did it again!"

 

[beerslurpy]

nevermind

 

[Zoogster]

Also keep in mind China has a rich interest in things like "ninjas" that are backstabbing subtle stealthy assassins relying on offensive slaughtering of targets unprepared for attack. As opposed to ready and capable for defense able to trump the attacker. The philosophy is different, relying instead on killing an enemy using stealth as opposed to letting them be and being ready to defend oneself if needed.
One is more likely to think offense is the best defense in China since offensively things like following the law and having the advantage are mute, but defense requires constant readiness that leaves one vulnerable and unable to risk contraband being found.

 

[MikeH]

Zoogster, I don't see much difference between what you described compared military thinking elsewhere. The use of stealth and "dirty" methods have always had its place in the history of warfare worldwide, and will continue to be.