Choosing a pistol...

[JohnKSa]

Without an adequate knowledge of its use, there can be few things so purposeless and dangerous as a pistol. Adequate knowledge comes only from competent instruction. If you have never received such instruction and are not prepared to do so, do not buy a pistol, or if you own one already, surrender it to the police.​

These are not my words. Here is another quote from the same source.

(The author has a) ...dislike of the profusion of safety devices with which all automatic pistols are regularly equipped. ... It is better...to make the pistol permanently "unsafe" and then to devise such methods of handling it that there will be no accidents.​

Discussion about the possible source or the content of these quotes? Some of you may recognize the source, but if you do keep it a secret for now.

 

[Geronimo45]

Pretty sure it came from an ould-time copper before there were many gun-grabbers - check your PMs.

I disagree with the 'turn it over to the federales' idea, for sure - but I think it's just an exaggeration to make a point. Pistols are easier to wield in tight spaces. They're short and handy. That means that stupid handling is more likely to hurt you with a pistol than a rifle - you don't go sticking a 12-gauge in your waistband.

As for the second part, he'd've loved Glocks.

It's pretty cumbersome to flick the safety on a 1911 at speed - at first, anyway. If you need to draw a gun, you may need to shoot the second you clear leather - and a safety might slow you down, possibly killing you.

 

[JohnKSa]

As for the second part, he'd've loved Glocks.

The same thought crossed my mind.

I'm not so sure that the first quote was intended to be an exaggeration. If you think about it in the context of the second quote, they really dovetail.

 

[Froggy]

Thought I recognized the text, but had to look it up to make sure. Here is another from the same chapter:

We shall assume, however, that our readers are sufficiently interested to recognise that the possession of a pistol and efficiency in its use should go hand-in-hand.

 

[Geronimo45]

A lot of folks have the same idea, minus handing it over to the police - they'd say to sell it instead. A handgun is harder to aim than a rifle, it is easier to point at yourself - I expect that most NDs/ADs are with pistols. With all the crazy gun handling on TV, training may be more important than ever before.

As for the safety bit - I wonder about that from time to time. I see 1911s cocked and locked in a belt holster that completely covers the trigger guard. The hammer's not gonna fall unless the trigger is pressed, is it? No? You know to keep your finger off the trigger till you're on target - so why do you need the safety on? A little confusing.

 

[Inner Monkey]

I think I have a pretty good idea who wrote those quotes.

I think safety & readiness are trade offs. The “safer” a gun is the less ready it is. The more ready it is the less “safe” it is. Those of us that know the score know that safety is between our ears.

I also agree that the trend toward more safety features is more or less a waste & is intended to placate the lawyers of gun companies.

 

[AStone]

Subscribed.

Neither my pistol nor my revolver,
nor the revolver that I want next
<sp101 in .357 mag> have a "safety".

So, we should review the four rules of gun safety.

1. All guns are always loaded (until you establish whether they are or not).

2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
Keep your gun pointed in a safe direction at all times: on the range, at home, loading, or unloading.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target (and you are ready to shoot).

4. Be sure of your target. Know what it is, what is in line with it and what is behind it.
Never shoot at anything that you haven't positively identified.​

 

[JohnKSa]

Here's another quote from the same source.

(The author) is often asked what is the best weapon to have in the house for purely protective purposes. Most of the people who make this enquiry know little of fire-arms and say so quite frankly. It usually happens, too, that they have neither the intention nor the opportunity to make themselves efficient with any kind of (handgun) . If they are of this type, (the author) is convinced that they would be better off with a good watch-dog, or even a police-whistle.​

 

[Autolycus]

I will admit I do not know for sure who it is but I think I am onto his identity.

 

[Beetle Bailey]

Hmmm. . . looks like I need to go out and buy more books about handguns.

I used to know a guy just like the one the author of those quotes is talking about. He bought himself a pistol for self defense and a year later still hadn't shot it, ever. For that matter, he had never fired any other gun before in his entire life! I guess he somehow managed to pass the handgun safety test that is required here in California, but that is just a multiple choice test and a handling test with a snap-cap.

I never offered to go shooting with him because quite frankly, he kinda scared me. I got bad vibs from him so when I found out he had bought a pistol, I simply suggested he go to a public shooting range and ask about professional instruction on learning to shoot. He never did, and I suspect it might have been partly because he felt uncomfortable admitting to a complete stranger that he didn't know how to shoot. I haven't seen or heard from him in years and for all I know, he might still have never shot a gun.

I don't understand how someone could be so willing to buy a gun and at the same time, so unwilling to try to aquire the most basic skills with it. In my view, he probably would be better off than he is now if he had a dog or a whistle, as the quote suggests. However, it would be better still if he would learn both how to use his gun well and also how not to creep people out.

 

[JohnKSa]

Ken,

That's what I call the "magic gun syndrome". A person buys a gun and believes that it will keep him safe simply by virtue of its presence. I don't mean that this is reasoned out at the conscious level but that's clearly what's going on somewhere deep in the mind.

The "magic gun syndrome" is very contagious and almost no one is immune although the symptoms do vary from person to person. In more "gunny" types, the "magic gun syndrome" symptoms are exhibited in "my magic gun is better than your magic gun" arguments or some variation of that theme.

 

[Beetle Bailey]

John,

I like that you gave a name to the "syndrome" as it indeed does exist.

I actually paid extra for the prancing pony on the side of my .45 Auto because I was told that in times of great danger, the pony would come alive and jump out of the gun to absorb incoming rounds, thus allowing me to live to fight another day!

Back on topic, how long before we find out the author of these quotes? I have a guess based on the writing style and content. . .

 

[Old Fuff]

Neither my pistol nor my revolver, nor the revolver that I want next <sp101 in .357 mag> have a "safety".

Not exactly true so far as the revolvers go. Modern double-action hand ejectors, including the Ruger SP-101 have at least one and sometimes two internal mechanical safties (as opposed to manual ones found on some automatic pistols.) The revolver is carried with the hammer at rest, and depending on the design of the safety(s) it cannot touch the firing pin, or advance the firing pin through the breechface until the trigger is pulled back to its most rearward position, and held there while the hammer falls to fire a cartridge. When the trigger is released to move forward the safety(s) are engaged again.

 

[JohnKSa]

...how long before we find out the author of these quotes?

Not just yet--but here's a hint. It's NOT Jeff Cooper.

Here's another quote relating to training.

...beyond helping to teach care in the handling of fire-arms, target shooting is of no value whatever in learning the use of the pistol as a weapon of combat. ...what has been learned from target shooting is best unlearned if proficiency is desired in the use of the pistol under actual fighting conditions.​

Darn--now the author has stopped preaching and gone to meddlin'!

 

[Old Fuff]

John:

I think your author might be an Englishman...

 

[lee n. field]

Deleted.

Use The Force, Luke.

 

[wally]

I don't understand how someone could be so willing to buy a gun and at the same time, so unwilling to try to aquire the most basic skills with it. In my view, he probably would be better off than he is now if he had a dog or a whistle, as the quote suggests. However, it would be better still if he would learn both how to use his gun well and also how not to creep people out.

I buy all manner of insurance without taking courses in how to file claims. I buy it with the hope I never need it. I suspect guns are like that for many folks and any "safety" or "training" requirements will ultimately be used to usurp our 2nd Amendment Rights.

Virtually every newbie I've taught to shoot has put the first round in the 10 ring at a car length, and then usually the rest in the dirt in front of the target. When the SHTF even highly trained(?) professionals like the police and military miss far more often than they hit, so why deny anyone their basic human right to adaquate tools for self defence because they may not meet your definition of proficency. Handling a gun is not rocket science! The user interface has evolved to being "instinctive" over the past 500 years or so.

I recommend a shotgun to people whom I don't think would put the effort into learning. But its a lot easier to have a handgun in your back pocket when answering the door to strangers.

I had one friend who being an artsy type probably would have voted anti if he'd paid much attension to such things. Outlook changed immediately one night when someone started breaking down his door while they were home. He was clever enough to bluff by saying he had a gun while his wife called the police. They left. He was rattled, the police had nothing to offer beyond a form to fill out, their slow response left him rattled. He called me, I said go buy a shotgun, shortest length you can find, whatever is on sale. He did, sure enough next night they came back, and started to call his bluff, racking the shoutgun sent the scumbags running like roaches. They put the house on the market the next day and moved to the Woodlands. Too bad, as it was his wife's home inherited from her father that used to be a nice neighborhood near Hobby airport. Has he ever fired his shotgun? I don't know or really care but I'm sure it rates as some of the best money he'd ever spent!

--wally.

 

[JohnKSa]

I buy all manner of insurance without taking courses in how to file claims.

An insurance policy is not likely to endanger the purchaser nor the purchaser's neighbors because he doesn't know how to properly use it.

Yes, you're right, many people think of guns as insurance. You buy them, load them, put them in a drawer and when you need them, they come out and magically solve everything.

Truth be told, even insurance doesn't work that well!

 

[wally]

Fact is, for most non-criminal (self-defense) civilian use of firearms the problem is solved without firing a shot, magic or not -- the bulk of the scumbags quickly move on to look for easier prey.

is not likely to endanger the purchaser nor the purchaser's neighbors because he doesn't know how to properly use it.

Applies to cars too which kill way more than guns. Enforced bans on cell phone use while driving would do far more to enhance my personal safety than anything I can think of -- hardly a day goes by where only my superior driving reflexes avoids an accident with some idiot on the cell phone not paying attension!

--wally.

 

[JohnKSa]

Fact is, for most non-criminal (self-defense) civilian use of firearms the problem is solved without firing a shot, magic or not -- the bulk of the scumbags quickly move on to look for easier prey.

True again, but that still doesn't make an untrained person safe with a firearm. And while many criminals give up at the sight of the gun, that doesn't mean that we should count on that outcome. It's still important for a pistol's owner to be able to safely and efficiently use it when necessary.

Applies to cars too which kill way more than guns. Enforced bans on cell phone use while driving would do far more to enhance my personal safety than anything I can think of -- hardly a day goes by where only my superior driving reflexes avoids an accident with some idiot on the cell phone not paying attension!

Again I agree, but again I must point out that the problem is the same: a person with a potentially dangerous instrument (a car in this case) who doesn't have the proper attitude about its use and either doesn't have the proper training or is disregarding what they were trained to do (pay attention to the road and their surroundings). If anything, this is a perfect example of why people who don't have the proper training or who don't have the necessary motivation/attitude to learn to use a tool safely are better off not using it.

BTW, if you re-read the quote, you will note that the author is not suggesting that a person shouldn't be allowed to own a pistol without the proper training. The author is merely stating that without the proper training a pistol's owner is a danger to himself and those around him.

 

[JohnKSa]

The quotes are from "Shooting to Live" by Fairbairn and Sykes. The book was written in the late 30s/early 40s.

According to the note from the publisher, "The methods taught (in the book) provided the basis for all the later masters--Applegate, Weaver, Cooper, Taylor, Chapman, Farnham, Hackathorn, et. al."

 

[Beetle Bailey]

When the SHTF even highly trained(?) professionals like the police and military miss far more often than they hit, so why deny anyone their basic human right to adaquate tools for self defence because they may not meet your definition of proficency.

Even though I disapproved of his behavoir, I was actually quite tolerant of it.

I never tried to take his gun away from him, nor offer to trade him a whistle for it. I encouraged him to take a class in the hopes that it would help him, because I figured it could only be beneficial. Even though I thought he was kinda creepy, I wanted to introduce to him the idea of being a little more proficent with something he might, in spite of his best efforts, have to use to fight for his life with. I hope this clarifies things.

 

[Old Fuff]

Fairbrain and Applegate were both advocates of point shooting where the others mentioned were not. Cocked & Locked carry fans may be shocked to learn that while he was in charge of weapons & training in the pre-war Shanghai (China) Municipal Police Department, William Fairbrain ordered that manual safeties on .380 Colt Pocket Models issued to his officers have a small screw installed so that the safety couldn't be moved to the "ON" position

He obviously practiced what he preached...

 

[sfhogman]

The book is still available. While not deathless prose, it's very instructive. It also provides a historical insight: though the problems are pretty much the same, they were handled a bit differently at that time.

I enjoyed the heck out of it.

Jeff

 

[Froggy]

Shooting to Live is available as a 3.2MB PDF file here:

http://www.gutterfighting.org/gun.html