Choosing an unarmed fighting style...

[fastbolt]

I agree that the "answer" to your question probably isn't going to be clear, concise and simple ... but you probably didn't expect it to be.

I've been involved in the arts for 33 years, and I've been exposed to my fair share of them. When I first formally joined a dojo (one of the Shotokan styles) the "entry level" classes weren't Shotokan Karate. Instead, they were promoted as a Basic Self Defense Course, and actually incorporated various grabbing, sweeping, throwing, grappling, joint locking/disabling techniques, and falling ... in addition to very basic blocking, deflection, punching & kicking.

Probably seemed like pretty simple stuff, from the perspective of most long-term students in various "traditional" arts, though ...

Some of these "self defense" techniques remained useful throughout the years, however, regardless of other advancement and refinement within various different arts. Not surprising, as some of the "techniques" were distilled and simplified from different very effective arts. What they lacked in "traditional purity of style", they made up for in potential effectiveness when performed by someone of basic, but proper, training & experience ... and possessed of motivation, adequately developed physical abilities, and the sincere desire to survive a physical attack.

Folks that remained interested after the conclusion of the "Self Defense" course were then able to transfer to the more formalized & traditional art. Some stayed, more didn't ...

This type of short duration "Self Defense Course" wasn't exclusive to only one particular dojo, or school system, either ... as they seemed to be advertised at many of the (admittedly sparse) schools in the late 60's & early 70's. These short term courses seemed to be primarily conceived to attract people to come inside the front door without the requirement that they promise to spend large amounts of money, or sign "contracts" for long duration attendance. It gave the "students" the opportunity to "try out" a school, and see if they wanted to continue ... without necessarily being obligated from the beginning. One of the benefits, though, was that sometimes a basic course of a few months duration, combined with diligent and sincere physical training, may have actually offered many folks what they considered to be "enough" benefit. For comparison, of a sort, look at the basic defensive tactics & control techniques taught to many L/E nowadays.

While I haven't taken on hardly any students over the last several years, when approached and asked I've referred many folks to many different "styles" of available arts. Mostly, it depends on their interest, the reason for their interest, and what their relative strengths & weaknesses may be when it comes to learning and applying themselves to different physical training regimens. Some want more immediate defensive abilities geared toward potential opponents that probably aren't intensively trained themselves ... and some want the immediate innundation in a broad range of "basic" defensive tactics & skills, but with longer range goals of greater knowledge & refinement in mind, as well ...

Some folks are looking for little more than the "physical" ... defensive skills. Offensive skills. Simple fighting skills and abilities. Nothing wrong with that ... in and of itself. Depends on your reason for learning and your application of what you learn.

Some folks are looking for more traditional "arts", seeking self defense abilities, sure, but also seeking refinement of skill & technique, personal development and "advancement" when it comes to an art ...

Some folks are seeking to find the underlying spiritual enlightenment to be discovered within many arts ... the development of spirit ... connection to higher aspects of self, as well as connection to others and creation. The Void. The Tao. The Ten Thousand Things. Enlightenment.

Gotta start somewhere, you know ... and you're probably the best person to decide which door might best suit you at this early stage. Pick one and walk through ...

Don't get in over your head ... try not to get unnecessarily injured, especially by other folks looking to hurt someone to "prove" their abilities ... look for a teacher that ultimately appears more interested in YOUR development than his own, and be prepared to continually rediscover that you're really going to remain a "beginner" for the rest of your life ... no matter how far you travel within the arts, and how "skilled" you may become.

Best of luck and fortune to you ... There's always room within the path for others ...

 

[El Tejon]

"try not to get unnecessarily injured."

Apparently fastbolt has seen me in the kwoon!

 

[STEVE M]

Lots of good information so far. It sounds as though you have a

cornocopia of good styles to choose from. I would sugest basing my

descision on how well I got along with the instructor. I don't care if

someone is teaching the greatest MA in the world, if you don't get along

with them then you will not stay with them vary long and will not get all it

has to offer. If on the other hand you study a plan jane style form a good

instructor you will more likely stay longer, train harder and become a much

better martial artist.

In a fight it's not the style it's the fighter. When learning, it's not the art

it's the teacher (and student).

 

[Soap]

To comment on fastbolt's post, many people are indeed looking for many different things in various martial disciplines. My personal view is that it is key to get them "trained up" as soon as possible to defend themselves from violent assault. After that, one can study the finer points, whether physical, mental, or spiritual of their chosen pathway.

For example, I'm studying Wing Chun under their Siu Yuk Mien lineage (well I'll resume training when I get my schedule sorted out). I'm also studying 19th century American and English bareknuckle boxing. Before I did any of this, I made sure that I had a basic skillset in place before I had undertaken any new disciplines.

 

[fastbolt]

As a young man, I felt I had an immediate need to be able to defend myself against a couple of attackers. I wanted something a bit more structured than rough & tumble. This may well have been more of a perceived need, than an actual one, but it felt very real to me.

When I settled on a dojo and started their Self defense Course, I soon discovered that I wanted something a little "more" ...

As it turned out, one of the instructors had been on a Kick Boxing Team fielded by Japan. All I knew about Kick Boxing at the time was what I'd read about in the early days of one of the Martial Arts magazines, which wasn't much beyond that there weren't that many Americans fighting on such teams, and that one such American was named Ray Edler. I was lucky enough to have stumbled across another.

Although Kick Boxing was virtually unknown among most Americans, and there wasn't any call to offer the training, I managed to convince the instructor with the Kick Boxing background to accept me for training outside of the regular Self Defense course. As soon as I started the training, I realized I'd found what I wanted for my immediate needs. I remained in the Self defense course, and then later undertook Shotokan training, but I remained with my Kick Boxing training throughout. It was brutal in those days, and it wasn't until I'd started advancing in Shotokan that I realized that most "traditionally" trained martial artists, at least in local Northern California dojos, weren't really being trained to take hits, or "go all out", as it were.. (These were the days when "protective equipment" consisted of nothing more than a cup, remember).

There was a lot of "cross-pollenization" in those days, although it wasn't exactly smiled upon by some of the more traditional training halls, dojos, kwoons, etc., but even among the more traditional styles there were enough folks interested in training with folks from other styles. (I mean, come on ... How else would you be able to understand and better compete against them in the local tournaments and state championships?) Tournaments were often bloody things in those days, and I remember watching a few folks carried out of a tournament on an ambulance guerney, or else just carried off the floor unconscious. Lots of folks disqualified, true, but that didn't stop it from happening. Some of the occasional smaller schools, of "ambiguous" reputation, actually enjoyed such things. They took pride in their students being disqualified for excessive contact, especially if it resulted in injury to their opponent. Hardly enlightened ... ... but I later made it a point to visit one such school, and "train" with everyone there, including their "head instructor". Interesting times ... and the unique perspective of youth.

When training against other more advanced folks from traditional styles, I found my Kick Boxing training ... and the ability to endure punishment, resulting from both MY successful application of techniques, AND being on the receiving end of someone else's techniques ... stood me in good stead.

While I continued traditional Shotokan training, and later began a life long interest in several Chinese arts, it was the Kick Boxing training that I remember being the most arduous ... but the most satisfying ... and the most immediately useful, in many respects.

Prioritize YOUR needs, and choose accordingly.

There's a wealth of training available in many arts, disciplines, styles and "blended techniques" nowadays. Much more than what was commonly available in the late 60's & early 70's. However, just like back then, a lot of what's being promoted isn't exactly "authentic", let alone useful. Use your common sense.

Practice well.

 

[atek3]

ow, my hips are sore. When was the last time your hips were sore? I'm not 60 either, I'm 22 so that's kinda suprising. And I hurt the tendon on my left tricep, ice and ibuprofen?
I sure suck at BJJ, but rolling with the pros at my dojo is VERY fun.

atek3

 

[Sungun09]

GeneC - good point

The best thing is to be in top shape for whatever you care to do.

Your mind is the best supplier or fighting style.

Other than that, read Bruce Lees book "Tao of Jet Kuun Do"

 

[Nightspell]

I'm not much of a fighter, I believe... Don't know, I haven't been in one in a long time. Never a very serious one. The way I see it, I'm probably about due for a good beating sometime in the near future. Anyway, my prediction is that if the other person attacking me has any experience in the trade, I'm probably going to get my bones rearranged, one way or the other. My only planned tactic is to fight dirty. Very, very dirty. If I'm in danger of being seriously hurt or killed in hand-to-hand, bet your sweet a** that I'll take the first opportunity to jam my thumb into the other guy's eye. That's my secret weapon. I figure getting anything suck into your eye socket and swirled around is going to end a fight very quickly. And if he's not backing off after that I'll kick for the groin, I'll bite, I'll throw dirt, I'll throw punches aiming for the teeth, I'll use 2x4's, tire irons, anything to stop the attacker. Whenever I'm unarmed (rarely) and start to feel uncomfortable with my surrounding company, the first thing I do is look for a make-shift weapon. This is a pretty broad area of objects. A ballpoint pen, for instance. It doesn't sound that intimidating when you talk about it, but when someone's got the death grip on it and intends to jam it into your gut, ear, eye, groin, etc... Well, it would at least make them second guess their actions. Another favorite of mine is a fist sized rock. One big enough that when grasped, there's plenty of exposed rock to slam into opponents head. Keys, branches -- anything if the situation warrants dire measures. Hell, come at me at night when I'm unarmed and you just might find yourself up against a lunatic swinging a broom around like a samurai sword. Just... Be creative. Improvise.

 

[El Tejon]

atek, you gotta stretch, man. Stretch and that way you can still do all this fun stuff when you are old like El Tejon.

You don't suck. You just started. You'll do great. Think of what you'll know in a year, and then the year after that.

Get some ddj from the Chinses herb shoppe for your bruises and to prevent soreness. Stay away from the stuff with mercury powder.

 

[dave3006]

Try going to the BJJ school and ask to try a class. Then, ask if you can roll (lightly) with someone and you will see how completely helpless you are. It will amaze and shock you how fast a trained opponent will take your arm, neck, and leg at will. You will join immediately.

To set things straight, BJJ is not the only thing you need to learn. You do need to learn to strike and kick. It is just that I trust my BJJ to stop an opponent much better than striking. You can trust the techniques to work better under stress. I have a black belt in Shotokan Karate.

I am 42 and train with 20 year old, tatooed, pierced kids that fight for money on Thursday nights in a cage. I hold my own. Some of them kick my butt, I kick some of their butts. I have fun and am learning.

 

[Soap]

Along the lines of what Dave said, also go to a serious boxing gym and spar very lightly with one of the good boxers there. You will also again seem helpless. You might throw 100 punches at a good boxer and land 5. All the while they will be tapping you all over the face and abdomen. Something like BJJ or Judo, combined with boxing, and then the easy-to-learn WWII combatives, would make for a very serious package. The BJJ or Judo advantages are quite obvious. But for boxing, you will develop your eye-hand coordination, your power, your speed, and your ability to dodge blows. These sort of skills can help you in any sort of confrontation. Just always keep in mind that training is great to help you for a real situation, but don't kid yourself into thinking that it is completely realistic. There are just too many variables in unarmed (and armed) fighting to cover every single one. So be wary of any instructor who claims to have all bases covered.

 

[dave3006]

Daniel is right. There is no complete system. Boxing and grappling are a formidable mix. I like boxing better than karate because boxers give and take hits. You weed out the stuff that doesn't work much faster when your facial bone structure is on the line.

Pick one and start. That is the important part. Keep your B.S. meter on full alert.

 

[GeneC]

Boys, y'all need to get into the 21st Century. There are complete systems. Almost every city has a MMA gym. There's people who's practiced in MMA and weapons and defensive shooting. Go to Straightblastgym.com. A boxer can take out regular sheeple quick, but hopefully he don't train for them. He trains for the fighter who trains too. A kickboxer can take out a regular boxer too quick( it's been proven in the Octagon too many times). A BJJ can take either one to the mat and choke them out quick. Listen, the main thing is to get into shape, period. Ya gotta be able to go the distance. All other things being equal, he who runs out of gas first, loses. You can run stadium stairs and pushups and pullups and crunches for free.

 

[Aikibiker]

I personally prefer Aikido. It is what works the best for me in real confrontations. I also train with a mindset very similar to that discussed at www.gutterfighting.org The site itself may seem a bit overly dramatic, but Ralph Grasso really knows what he is talking about and is worth listening to. Even if he doesn't like my chosen art.

I also reccomend this book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_2/002-2755513-1340047?v=glance&s=books

It talks about the difference between martial arts and a real fight and how to apply what you have learned into a self defense situation.

It is important to remember that no matter what type of art you are training in, be it mixed martial arts, traditional martial arts, or reality based self defense, a real fight will be alot different then training. For example I am pretty sure you don't bring your CCW onto the mat at your BJJ school.

 

[Soap]

Gene- Straight blast gym is great and Matt Thornton is great as well. But I think I missed the part where they teach me to bridge the unarmed gap to access my pistol. Or maybe I missed the part where someone charges you when you're clearing a malf in your previously 100% reliable gun. There is no system that covers all of the bases. Some come close, but yet they are so far away.

 

[GeneC]

Daniel, in the context of a 'magic art' that'll guarantee a victory in every situation, I'll agree there isn't one, but OPS in Fla and most schools teach ( and I personally believe Matt will agree)how to gain distance in a charge to access your weapon or to have the presence of mind to not be trying to clear a malf if you're being charged , but gain distance and go for your BUG. This ain't rocket science, it's pretty much common sense. Still, my point is, no matter what art you choose , your personal physical conditioning ( or luck ) will determine the outcome.

 

[atek3]

Once I have more money, I'd like to hit up "modern combatives" here in Berkeley. A pretty Standard MMA curriculum, but the teachers are all "gunnies", so I can ask questions that would baffle a sensei such as, if someone suprises me into a clinch how to I retain my firearm and end the fight quickly.

atek3

 

[Paul Gomez]

If you are being charged and you gun has choked, you hit them with the friggin' gun. That's about all you've got time for given the constraints of the fight. You're not going to get the gun back into action [and if you do, so what? It's not going to stop the forward momentum of his charge even if he's DRT]. You're not going to stow the gun. I ain't throwing my gun on the ground so I can go empty hands with the guy. I'm going to move into him and hit him with the gun until I get some better options.

As has been said, "It ain't rocket surgery".

 

[Aikibiker]

If you are being charged and you gun has choked, you hit them with the friggin' gun.

That is certainly an arguement against polymer framed pistols.

Has anyone ever done any testing to see how well modern plastic guns fare when used for pistol whipping?

I love my USP .45c to death, but I would be much more hesitant about laying it upside some goblin's head then I would a good old fashioned 1911. I guess that is what God invented eldow strikes for.

 

[Paul Gomez]

Plastic frames guns do just fine. It's more a matter of technique than gun design. There are three basic ways that I hit with a pistol:

1. Feed them the muzzle.

2. Arcing [ridgehand-like] making contact with the top flat of the slide. (either high to the side of the head/temple/neck or under the arm and into the ribs)

3. Hammer fist, preferably making contact with the back corner of the magazine & gripframe.

I've thumped guys pretty hard in a fist suit with a Glock M19 and no issues have developed. The only problem I've seen is with snapping the plastic guide rod when doing a muzzle thrust with the slide locked to the rear. Of course, the gun still functions with a broken guiderod. I've managed to puncture a heavy bag doing a good commited muzzle thrust and I've managed to snap off more factory plastic sights than I care to think of, but, of course, those things are just put on at the factory so the dovetail and sight hole don't get damaged in shipping.

 

[El Tejon]

Paul Castle has told me that he has whacked his share of "yaboos" (need my English to English dictionary, but in context I think he said mopes) with a muzzle strike to the solar plexus. Goes against all the Old Skul training I've had, but you gotta flow like water, brasshopper.

 

[lbmii]

I would run if at all possible. If I had no other choice but to defend myself or risk the loss of my life then I think the key to personal defense is to be ruthless. I would avoid complex moves that require thought, practice and proper set up. Keep it simple; be fast, keep the other person's center of gravity going backwards, be creative, no rules, grab hold of hair or ears and violently shake the head, grab hair or ears and pull the person backwards and down to the pavement, kick groin, thumb into eyes, knee into ribs, slap to ears, bite something off, punch the Adams apple, slam the other person into a sign post, mailbox, curb, glass window, etc. Then run!

Use improvised weapons, I have read a lot of the Greek and Roman accounts of battle, often they would use rocks as weapons with great effect. Pick up a short thick tree branch to use as a club, or use a long thin tree branch to whip the guy in the face. Break something off something to use as a club. Throw things.

Find yourself in an airplane during a 9/11-style situation? Break the armrest off your seat and with your newly created American Indian war club, you will have the honor of a hero's death.

 

[Soap]

Now Ibmii gets it.

 

[fastbolt]

Still, my point is, no matter what art you choose , your personal physical conditioning ( or luck ) will determine the outcome.

Listen, the main thing is to get into shape, period. Ya gotta be able to go the distance.

There's validity to these comments, you know. Nothing like an intense situation where your life is threatened to quickly exhaust physical resources.

I would run if at all possible.

Survival is the goal, after all.

Whatever art you choose to begin your training ... or, over the longer term, your journey ... remember that those that would intentionally cause others harm don't always act alone. Arts which involve prolonged contact with a single attacker may not prove optimal in some situations, like when facing multiple attackers.

It's not a bad thing to become well-rounded, and versed in different arts and "fighting systems".

 

[jdovell]

I am new here but will give my advice. Be a college football player and take BJJ. I have used all the techniques from both to great effect. Few martial artists or attackers expect arm clubs and leg whips from dirty football to flow seemlessly to more traditional ground fighting styles. In physical attacks it is also helpful to outweigh your attacker(in muscle not fat of course). I worked as a bouncer for 5 years before goin into security. Size, speed, stamina and physical strength will always be useful in any physical attack. Think of weight training and ground fighting as making your body a larger caliber. You started out as a 22lr now train yourself into at least a 9mm. Also take some training on integration of weapons and physical attacks. My dad said it was always easier to shoot people than beat them to death. As I get older this makes more and more sense.