Unarmed Self Defense Training
- Thread starter Phineas Dregg
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Infidel4life11
Member
haha hell yes.
Mencius
Member
I was where you are now. I thought most traditional MA wasted too much time with kata. Sure, it might help, but I wanted the most bang for the buck in the shortest period of time.
After really looking into it I have come up with a few points:
1) I don't think you should "fight on the ground". I think BJJ, wrestling, etc. should just be used to get back up again and keep from getting to the ground. Being punched in the head by the guy's friend is much different than being punted in the head. Also, the sidewalk is much harder than the practice mats. I have seen guys lock up a great arm bar and it was almost like he was waiting on the other guy to tap (fight like you train) and instead the other guy got up and started bouncing his head off the sidewalk. I think ground fighting is highly over-rated.
2) Boxing or Muay Thai seems to be very effective. The problem with many MA is they try to teach too many techniques. For someone who just wants to learn some self defense you just need a few techniques and then drill them until they are second nature. The sport fighters (MMA, etc.) need to know many, many techniques because they are going against trained fighters and need to be able to counter and be effective in a different situation than against some punk on the street. If the guy on the street is a trained fighter (and you wouldn't know, of course) you are not going to learn how to deal with him with just a few hours a month in training. (See 3 below)
3) Why are you fighting the guy on the street in the first place? There is no reason to fight. You get in a situation that looks ugly run away. I understand that there is not always going to be a place to run, but I think the first and last thing you should be thinking is how do I get the hell outta here. If you actually engage the guy he may pull a knife, a club, a gun, or his buddies come around the corner. In my opinion no good comes from actually staying and fighting someone. The only reason to possibly engage is if you have family (wife, young kids, mother, etc.) with you. Then you just need to distract the guy long enough for them to get away. You are not in the army or LEO. You don't have to kill or subdue the guy. You just need to preserve yourself. Even guys who win fights end up in the ER sometimes.
I guess in my research I have pretty much come to the conclusion of try to get away and know just enough to cover your head/chin while you turn and run. Maybe learn a handful of techniques like a straight right and tight left hook.
Or, just know crazy. Start yelling at the top of your lungs and swinging every appendage as hard and fast as possible.
Just my thoughts, take it with a grain of salt.
After really looking into it I have come up with a few points:
1) I don't think you should "fight on the ground". I think BJJ, wrestling, etc. should just be used to get back up again and keep from getting to the ground. Being punched in the head by the guy's friend is much different than being punted in the head. Also, the sidewalk is much harder than the practice mats. I have seen guys lock up a great arm bar and it was almost like he was waiting on the other guy to tap (fight like you train) and instead the other guy got up and started bouncing his head off the sidewalk. I think ground fighting is highly over-rated.
2) Boxing or Muay Thai seems to be very effective. The problem with many MA is they try to teach too many techniques. For someone who just wants to learn some self defense you just need a few techniques and then drill them until they are second nature. The sport fighters (MMA, etc.) need to know many, many techniques because they are going against trained fighters and need to be able to counter and be effective in a different situation than against some punk on the street. If the guy on the street is a trained fighter (and you wouldn't know, of course) you are not going to learn how to deal with him with just a few hours a month in training. (See 3 below)
3) Why are you fighting the guy on the street in the first place? There is no reason to fight. You get in a situation that looks ugly run away. I understand that there is not always going to be a place to run, but I think the first and last thing you should be thinking is how do I get the hell outta here. If you actually engage the guy he may pull a knife, a club, a gun, or his buddies come around the corner. In my opinion no good comes from actually staying and fighting someone. The only reason to possibly engage is if you have family (wife, young kids, mother, etc.) with you. Then you just need to distract the guy long enough for them to get away. You are not in the army or LEO. You don't have to kill or subdue the guy. You just need to preserve yourself. Even guys who win fights end up in the ER sometimes.
I guess in my research I have pretty much come to the conclusion of try to get away and know just enough to cover your head/chin while you turn and run. Maybe learn a handful of techniques like a straight right and tight left hook.
Or, just know crazy. Start yelling at the top of your lungs and swinging every appendage as hard and fast as possible.
Just my thoughts, take it with a grain of salt.
Matthew Temkin
Member
Mencius said:
Sure... but that's like saying don't carry a gun when you can just run away. Or don't carry a knife when you can jes' shoot 'em. If you prepare for an idealized, equal initiative, 1 vs 1 encounter, you'll be unprepared for an encounter where you are overwhelmed and outnumbered. BJJ and grappling skills are good for regaining your footing, literally and figuratively.
Agree with your #2.
Your #3 seems to again be confusing strategy (the goal of running away, disengaging, ending the fight with minimal involvement or "cost") with tactics (what it may take to do that - particularly what it may take to do that in a worse-case scenario, which raises the question of what you are preparing for... why prepare for an ideal best case self defense scenario when preparing for a worst case covers more contingencies in between?).
Mencius
Member
That's why I said, "I don't think you should 'fight on the ground'. I think BJJ, wrestling, etc. should just be used to get back up again and keep from getting to the ground." Fighting to keep a guy "in your guard" or even getting mount and staying in that position to bring the pain seems like a bad move. Sure, learn how to position and keep your balance and get back up, I think spending hours learning various arm bars, Achilles holds, etc. is a waste of time and might be worse than not knowing it at all.
Not really sure what you meant by:
In my opinion, people who prepare to "duke it out" with some stranger on the street who initiated seems to be preparing for a best case scenario. The best case being that he is less trained than you, weaker, and is going to fight fair. Preparing and looking for a way to get away seems like it would work in a much worse scenario. Of course, preparing for a guy to sneak up behind you with a bat is not what either one really teaches.
I think it is a mind set thing. I think the mind set should be **** rather than trying to take the guy out. Luckily, I have never been in a fight I did not want to be in. I think situational awareness, staying out of certain areas, and just paying attention as well as keeping an eye toward how to get a away are more important than learning 3 different triangle chokes from the bottom.
My whole thing was based on the premise that this is not a college bar fight or a fight when you and your cousin go out in the yard to settle whose football team is the best. I am talking about fights where the other guy(s) are out to really hurt, kill, or permanently maim you and might not fight fair or quit when you tap.
Don't get me wrong, I have trained boxing, MT/BJJ, and TKD at various times in my life and loved it. I think it is great fun and would probably help me in a fight. If it was not so expensive and I was not so broken up I might still do it, but if I was looking purely for something to teach me to survive a street encounter with the least amount of damage I would look for something that teaches evasion more than engagement. I think the simplest and easiest to learn would be the best, something that uses gross motor skills. I know this is not macho to say, but they teach women the types of things I would think would be best in a real street situation.
Speaking of mind set I saw a news article once a while back, please forgive me if some of the details are off, where an LEO instructor who taught guys how to disarm an opponent when held at gunpoint. The instructor performed a perfect takeaway and got the gun from him. However, as his training dictated he gave the gun back to the guy, because that is what he does when training new recruits. He was subsequently shot. Not really sure this is relevant here, thought it was interesting though and might apply somewhere.
Bikewer
Member
I've been involved in various martial arts since I was skinny kid in the 50s. I've also been in law enforcement for 40+ years and have had my share of 'rasslin matches...
I think you're on track with the "traditional martial arts" route. As much a lifestyle as anything, and most systems require lots of training to be effective...And many are so stylized and tradition-bound as to have lost much or all combat effectiveness.
I agree that Krav Maga and JKD (Jeet Kun Do) are good, combat-oriented systems. So are the various systems of the Filipino martial arts. Escrima, ****, arnis... All closely related.
You need a striking component and a grappling component, and the grappling section should be concerned with escape and quick disabling moves like joint attacks.
You will not be wrestling a "cage fighter" to a "submission" in a broken-glass-filled alley... While the guy's buddy whacks you with a tire iron.
Training should be approached realistically. This means barefoot on a nice mat in a comfy, free-moving uniform is not very realistic... You should spend some portion of your training dressed as you might be dressed on the street.
Trying to kick in slick-soled dress shoes is going to be awfully different than bare feet on a mat.
Most attacks start with an unexpected blow or a grab, not by squaring off and bowing to each other.
Note that finding qualified JKD instructors may be... Difficult. Lee never set up his stuff as some sort of organized school with certified instructors and a governing body... Likely he would have been horrified at the idea.
So, what we have is various students of Lee and students of those students all professing their own brand of JKD, and arguing with each other about who's "correct".
Happens all the time in all styles.
Pick up a copy of Lee's 5-volume "Fighting Method" books and that'll give you a pretty good handle on what to expect.
I think you're on track with the "traditional martial arts" route. As much a lifestyle as anything, and most systems require lots of training to be effective...And many are so stylized and tradition-bound as to have lost much or all combat effectiveness.
I agree that Krav Maga and JKD (Jeet Kun Do) are good, combat-oriented systems. So are the various systems of the Filipino martial arts. Escrima, ****, arnis... All closely related.
You need a striking component and a grappling component, and the grappling section should be concerned with escape and quick disabling moves like joint attacks.
You will not be wrestling a "cage fighter" to a "submission" in a broken-glass-filled alley... While the guy's buddy whacks you with a tire iron.
Training should be approached realistically. This means barefoot on a nice mat in a comfy, free-moving uniform is not very realistic... You should spend some portion of your training dressed as you might be dressed on the street.
Trying to kick in slick-soled dress shoes is going to be awfully different than bare feet on a mat.
Most attacks start with an unexpected blow or a grab, not by squaring off and bowing to each other.
Note that finding qualified JKD instructors may be... Difficult. Lee never set up his stuff as some sort of organized school with certified instructors and a governing body... Likely he would have been horrified at the idea.
So, what we have is various students of Lee and students of those students all professing their own brand of JKD, and arguing with each other about who's "correct".
Happens all the time in all styles.
Pick up a copy of Lee's 5-volume "Fighting Method" books and that'll give you a pretty good handle on what to expect.
Jenrick
Member
Bikewer beat me to Filipino, dang it.
One of the biggest things with any self defense work is take an art as a base that will let you get popped, and return the favor. If you've never been punched in the face with predjudice you have no clue what a fight is about, and if you've never thrown a strike in true anger you need to learn how that works too. Boxing as previously mentioned is a good art to get that experience in controlled environment with good skill building and relatively short learning curve. You can learn the fundementals of boxing in 6 weeks, getting good at it is another ball of wax...
Filipino arts, Silat, etc are all good styles to learn. They will take time to get comfortable with, and they do have a LARGE array of techniques to learn. However the basics are just that, basic and simple. The concepts you'll learn are very good. Also these arts have unarmed, grappling, and weapon concepts that all integrate.
-Jenrick
One of the biggest things with any self defense work is take an art as a base that will let you get popped, and return the favor. If you've never been punched in the face with predjudice you have no clue what a fight is about, and if you've never thrown a strike in true anger you need to learn how that works too. Boxing as previously mentioned is a good art to get that experience in controlled environment with good skill building and relatively short learning curve. You can learn the fundementals of boxing in 6 weeks, getting good at it is another ball of wax...
Filipino arts, Silat, etc are all good styles to learn. They will take time to get comfortable with, and they do have a LARGE array of techniques to learn. However the basics are just that, basic and simple. The concepts you'll learn are very good. Also these arts have unarmed, grappling, and weapon concepts that all integrate.
-Jenrick
DaisyCutter
Member
If you have opposable thumbs, then you are a tool user. Fighting empty hand is absurd. Grab something.
Win.
Win.
Averageman
Member
I wrestled in High School and was pretty good, I was on the judo team in College and was pretty good, I boxed in the Army and learned something very quickly, that is a brutal sport.
All of that being said, I was in a bar one night in Germany and a Mountain of a Man picked a fight with a guy who weighed about 130 lbs soaking wet. The big guy wouldn't let up. The Little guy, who was one of the Tank Drivers in my Company lept on to the guy and wrapped his legs around the big guys torso and his arms around his neck and bit him on the nose.
It might have lasted thirty seconds until the big guy hit the floor and passed out minus some of his nose. The little guy rinsed his mouth out with beer and spit it on the Big Guy and made a hasty exit.
Kaaaraaaazy wins every time.
All of that being said, I was in a bar one night in Germany and a Mountain of a Man picked a fight with a guy who weighed about 130 lbs soaking wet. The big guy wouldn't let up. The Little guy, who was one of the Tank Drivers in my Company lept on to the guy and wrapped his legs around the big guys torso and his arms around his neck and bit him on the nose.
It might have lasted thirty seconds until the big guy hit the floor and passed out minus some of his nose. The little guy rinsed his mouth out with beer and spit it on the Big Guy and made a hasty exit.
Kaaaraaaazy wins every time.
poolingmyignorance
Member
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How long till the VD killed him?...Just kidding. Kinda
I know sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do..but biting should be the LAST RESORT. Who knows what diseases the other guy has.
Averageman
Member
I think the alcohol level in that guys mouth killed anything viable except bad breath.
He wasn't ever in any kind of shape but intoxicated, but he was a great Tank Driver and scared the crap out of me after that incident.
Catching a disease based upon biting someone, well that was the least of his worries, believe me.
He wasn't ever in any kind of shape but intoxicated, but he was a great Tank Driver and scared the crap out of me after that incident.
Catching a disease based upon biting someone, well that was the least of his worries, believe me.
cluck
Member
Defensive Arts
"what is the best martial art?" is about as divisive as "what is the best carry gun?"
My picks are based on true self defense as opposed to sport fighting and are on totally opposite ends of the hard vs. soft style spectrum.
#1 - Aikido. The essence of efficiency and TIMING! The best techniques in aikido are learning not to be in harms way in the first place. A life long practice to be proficient so it is probably NOT for the OP.
#2 - Krav Maga. Highly effective. Not so much about technique as it is about extreme aggression. (jokingly) Everything in Krav ends in a shot to the groin.
It was the first class I had ever attended that used smoke machines and strobe lights amidst heavy metal music while a big guy in a RedMan suit comes at you full speed with a rubber knife. Completely disorienting! But talk about training in a worst case scenario. Like someone said before, the IDF knows what the hell they are doing. Some commitment will reap some results. Probably the best choice for the OP.
I also like Jeet Kune Do but have no personal experience with it. JKD, like Krav is an adaptive martial art that has borrowed the best of other styles. I also have a special place in my heart for Hapkido (my first style). It too is pure self defense.
Find something that works best with your body and fitness level. Most of all....FIND A QUALITY INSTRUCTOR!!! <<<(hardest part)
And remember: The level of skill is proportional to the level of commitment.
Do you think you can defend your life with your firearm by going to the range twice a month and plink at static targets?
"what is the best martial art?" is about as divisive as "what is the best carry gun?"
My picks are based on true self defense as opposed to sport fighting and are on totally opposite ends of the hard vs. soft style spectrum.
#1 - Aikido. The essence of efficiency and TIMING! The best techniques in aikido are learning not to be in harms way in the first place. A life long practice to be proficient so it is probably NOT for the OP.
#2 - Krav Maga. Highly effective. Not so much about technique as it is about extreme aggression. (jokingly) Everything in Krav ends in a shot to the groin.
It was the first class I had ever attended that used smoke machines and strobe lights amidst heavy metal music while a big guy in a RedMan suit comes at you full speed with a rubber knife. Completely disorienting! But talk about training in a worst case scenario. Like someone said before, the IDF knows what the hell they are doing. Some commitment will reap some results. Probably the best choice for the OP.
I also like Jeet Kune Do but have no personal experience with it. JKD, like Krav is an adaptive martial art that has borrowed the best of other styles. I also have a special place in my heart for Hapkido (my first style). It too is pure self defense.
Find something that works best with your body and fitness level. Most of all....FIND A QUALITY INSTRUCTOR!!! <<<(hardest part)
And remember: The level of skill is proportional to the level of commitment.
Do you think you can defend your life with your firearm by going to the range twice a month and plink at static targets?
Deaf Smith
Member
Krav Maga.
Now the kicks of Taekwondo are very good, especially if done low, but alot of the 'self defense' is hokie (and I say that as a 5th Dan in Taekwondo.)
Your hands need to be more in the JKD style. JKD steals most of their techniques from other arts, just as Krav Maga does. Some flat of hand techniques, some punching, elbows and knees. Basic grappling to (and this includes throws as in Judo.)
Just basic set. Don't need 500 techniques!
Do what I did. Make self defense (NOT MARTIAL ARTS BUT SELF DEFENSE) your hobby. This includes shooting to.
First get fit! You need to be reasonably fit to do such as KM. Then take the classes. Same time get into IDPA and practice as well as shoot the matches. Read up on the 'Polite Society' to and alot of their articles.
Enjoy it! That is very important. When you enjoy working out and shooting you learn more and retain more and in time you internalize it till it's second nature.
Do that and obey the 'three stupids' law and you will end up being capable of defending your self and still never need to!
Deaf
DirtyDiesel
Member
Strength and intimidation have worked well for me...Lol. Being a body builder (6'0 228lbs at 7% BF), during a past confrontation I took my coat and over shirt off (leaving a tank top on) to get ready and acted all jacked up and showed some rage and the guy quickly rethought his upcoming actions. So acting like your confident is a huge mental factor, especially for your opponent to see that.
So my advice: start a workout program, and act buck wild LOL sounds silly but works
So my advice: start a workout program, and act buck wild LOL sounds silly but works
poolingmyignorance
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Your thinking the diffrence between chest thumping and somebody who seriously intends you harm. All that time you spend reved up and taking off your jacket is time while your hands are occupied and your face is vounerable. Yea big guys are dangerous if they don't have to be perfect at everything cause their wieght and strengh can afford them some slopp, but a knife in the hand of an attacker and that wiegh suddenly means much less. Situational awarness, techninque, conditioning, strenght is the order I would prioritize. YMMV.
Deltaboy1984
Member
I have studied many of the Arts and I have had bayonet and Street survival training by my ROTC instructor and the lead instructor for the Arkansas State Police. That is why I carry a metal ink pen ,a mini mag lite , 2 knives , a cane on top of my pistol. Oh I forgot the pepper spray.
A man got to have options!
A man got to have options!
easyg
Member
There is much truth to this statement.
Fighting with empty hands should be avoided at all times.
Pepper-spray, a baton, a sap, a blackjack, brass knuckles, a cane or other makeshift stick weapons, coins in a bandanna, a cup of hot coffee, a battery in sock, a glass bottle, a chair, a motorcycle helmet, a flashlight, a rappelling carabiner, a can of soda, etc...use a weapon whenever possible.
After all, your opponent will almost certainly have a weapon, or be looking for one!
lloveless
Member
There are some things in life you shouldn't look for a short cut. Unarmed self defense isn't one of them. Building muscle memory comes with repetition (training). Katas teach you about stances,movement, and strikes/blows/kicks in various combinations. Something you can do by yourself. To perfect timing requires multiple partners because everyone attacks differently. As for traditional MA being hokey, maybe yours was, mine wasn't, and has kept me safe from knife and club attacks.
ll
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Midnight Oil
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- Dec 27, 2012
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- 88
as far as a martial arts goes. It's always the practitioner and not the art. what i will say is this, as far as boxing goes, just know that the way you punch while wearing gloves, and the way you punch bare knuckle is very different, and needs to be...
Try Rex Applegate's Kill or Be Killed for basic hand to hand moves, knife fighting, shooting, etc. It is based on Applegate's experience in teaching special forces in WWII with such people of Douglas Fairburn etc. His system is designed for training soldiers with no experience in fighting how to kill the enemy with whatever tools they have on hand. Some of the firearms stuff is a bit dated but much of the rest is still relevant.
That is all well in good until you try that with someone who is trained or who actually wants to hurt you. It will be a scary and painful wakeup call.
HorseSoldier
Member
In my opinion (coming to the topic from a Big Army/USASOC support soldier/civilian law enforcement perspective) the Modern Army Combatives Program is an absolutely shocking waste of time and resources.
I will agree with the idea up thread that it is a good mental conditioning exercise for combat, and it seems to have kind of taken the place of pugil sticks and bayonet courses in the minds of younger troops as being that defining rubber meets the road sort of experience in basic training.
But as an actual fighting system? It's a joke. Maybe I've just had consistently bad MACP trainers on the .mil side, but all they all want to talk about it how to take the other guy to the ground and Brazilian Ju-Jitsu him up into a submitting pretzel or choke him out. In civilian law enforcement I was taught that we die on the ground -- we're wearing a bunch more kit and once you get tied up grappling with one guy your ability to control access to your assorted weapons goes south real fast and any buddies he has can kill you at their leisure. Our ground fighting skill set is aimed at ground escape, not winning there, and getting back to your feet where you have infinitely more tactical options and better situational awareness.
And in LE work I wore about 50 pounds less junk than I wore in .mil work.
MACP doesn't teach guys a useful skill set for being on the battlefield in full kit with an M4/SAW/M240/whatever strapped to their body. Maybe at higher levels of MACP than I've been exposed to they even touch on weapons retention, learning what you can and can't do with 60-80 pounds of stuff strapped to your body, etc., all of which would have been real nice for the guys around me to have had some training on last time I was dismounted security in an Afghan market.
What the army needs to do is develop a short course packaged specifically to teach techniques optimized for when you are wearing full kit and you're fighting some wiry, scrappy guy wearing a set of man pajamas and maybe a half-empty AK chest rig. That skill set needs to integrate weapons retention, strikes with weapons, ground escape by any means necessary, and a short course of crippling and fight ending strikes. And it needs to be something you can download into troops in 40 hours. All the army silliness about levels and the USMC's uber-silliness about earning combatives belts -- once upon a time I thought there were grown ups running the military, but the longer I'm around it (and I'm short now -- months, not years, to 20 . . .) the less and less convinced I am of that.
MPs need a more elaborate tool kit to do their job, but for troops going OCONUS we owe them quite a bit better than MACP provides.
The problem with the battlefield is that buying time until a buddy shows up can be a two way street, as was noted up thread.
And, as for doing it in full kit -- yes, it is more exhausting. Doing it for real when its potentially life of death is even more draining (LE experience not .mil on that). My thing is if you can't put on full kit with an M4 rubber duck strapped to you and finish the fight in training with a guy in a Blauer suit -- and I bet you even extended scale PT test super studs would have trouble -- then maybe the problem isn't the troops, maybe it's the program.
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