"Chopping" the barrel on a Winchester 1897 shotgun for CAS?

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MCMXI

MCMXI

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I'm starting out in CAS and need a "period" shotgun. I've looked into the CZ, Spartan, Stoeger and Norinco options and would much prefer a "made in America" shotgun suitable for CAS. I've been searching for Winchester 1897 shotguns since the Marlin shotguns from the late 19th century all seem to come with warning labels to the effect of DON'T SHOOT. Most of the 1897s that I've found have a 30" barrel so would it be sacrilegious, impractical or just plain dumb to chop the barrel down to 20" or thereabouts?

Thanks.

:)
 
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This is a thread I started recently about just such "choppings":
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Doc, I read that thread when I did a search for "chopping shotguns". Just because something is old doesn't always make it valuable. Is it better that an old shotgun sits over the fireplace in its original form never to be used again or is it better to "butcher" it and use it for another 50 years? If an American company was making period style shotguns suitable for CAS in this country I'd order one in a heartbeat. The fact that I have to buy Russian, Turkish, Brazilian, or worse yet, Chinese reproductions is a disgrace. At this point I haven't decided what I'm going to do, but the elitist comments and numerous insults aimed at CAS members in the thread that you started are of no help to anyone. I suppose the thousands of cowboys that had their Remington 1858s converted to rimfire and then to centerfire at the end of the 19th century would bother you too. We've been modifying tools since the time of Homo Habilis more than 2,000,000 years ago and probably long before that.

Thanks for the help!! :rolleyes:
 
At this point I haven't decided what I'm going to do, but the elitist comments and numerous insults aimed at CAS members in the thread that you started are of no help to anyone. I suppose the thousands of cowboys that had their Remington 1858s converted to rimfire and then to centerfire at the end of the 19th century would bother you too.
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Whether you agree with Doc2005 or not is not cause for insults. Your original post asked a question. It did not specify that the answers had to be to your liking. I happen to agree with both of you in different ways, but I think I could write in such a way as not to be insulting to either. My opinion only.
 
Would I buy a 30" Full choke to cut it down for CAS? No. Just a bad idea.

I received my Grandfather's 1897 back in 1980 having gone through an Uncle to my Father and then to me. For some reason my Uncle shortened the 30" barrel to 28" removing the choke; what I received was a 28" cylinder bore gun.

With collector value gone I had the barrel further shortened to 22". That was a mistake; instead I should have had one of the variable chokes available then added. Now I'd have the 28" barrel threaded for choke inserts. That said, at 22" it was and still is a good HD gun.

Buy a new 12 ga DB shotgun regardless of where it's made. Why ruin a classic pump shotgun that is no longer made when you can buy a new gun that's closer to period. 1897 may be okay with the CAS rules committee, but how many shotguns back than were pump action? Seems to me doubles and singles would have been much more common.

. . .Is it better that an old shotgun sits over the fireplace in its original form never to be used again or is it better to "butcher" it and use it for another 50 years? . . .
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Are you going to shoot CAS for 50 years? More likely it will shoot a few rounds at CAS and then get retired at half its original value. JMHO
 
1858 asked:

Most of the 1897s that I've found have a 30" barrel so would it be sacrilegious, impractical or just plain dumb to chop the barrel down to 20" or thereabouts?
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My thought is, it's just a cryin' shame. See, I'm a traditionalist. I like to see 1934 Ford pickup trucks returned to stock condition, 1964.5 Mustangs restored to stock, and even old shotties left as they are (were). It's your money. It's your shotgun. It's your decision. But, when you ask the public...

Most of the 1897s that I've found have a 30" barrel so would it be sacrilegious, impractical or just plain dumb to chop the barrel down to 20" or thereabouts?
Click to expand...

expect to hear an honest answer, even if from a traditionalist.

Respectfully,

Doc2005
 
Your original post asked a question. It did not specify that the answers had to be to your liking.
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Milkmaster, I don't have any preconceived ideas about this, so any rational, respectful response is appreciated. If you read the other thread, there was a lot of CAS bashing and a general tone of "this is how it is, end of discussion" which doesn't work for me at all.

riverdog, thanks ... that's very helpful. I'm going to see if it's possible to have a "temporary" CAS only barrel installed on an 1897 which may mean looking for a take-down version. Since I don't know much about the 1897 this may be a pipe dream. Despite the impression that I'm a hack-saw wielding Neandertal, I would start chopping under duress. If there's any way to have the best of both worlds them I'm all for it.


:)
 
I dont know the CAS rules so please bear with me.

I find myself wondering....what advantage is there to shortening the barrel of a '97?

The longer barrel cant slow you down that much moving the point of aim from target to target. So why cut them at all?

Jeff
 
Doc, thanks for that ... I think we're on the same page now and I sincerely apologize to you if my previous post was offensive to you or others. I'm trying to do the right thing and that's why I posted my question.

Thanks.

:)
 
The longer barrel cant slow you down that much moving the point of aim from target to target. So why cut them at all?
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Jeff, my limited understanding is that CAS requires a coach gun which historically was a short, double barreled shotgun. They were short so that they were easy and quick to wield in confined spaces. In addition, coaches in those days offered a very bumpy ride so imagine trying to hit something 50 yards away with a "regular" shotgun. A shortened barrel would provide a larger spread which would make it easier to hit the intended target.

:)
 
There was an article on real life coach guns a few years back in one of the gun rags. Researching old pictures showed lots of shotguns used on Stagecoaches, most seemed to be long of barrel.

Wells Fargo did order Parker shotguns with 22" barrels, but they also used longer barreled weapons.

As to the OP's query on the barrel, I'd leave it alone and learn to use it as it is.

A 97 is way too much shotgun, though, to leave alone except for some CAS matches. Were it mine, it'd see some clays work and definitely get taken hunting.
 
I took a look at the SASS handbook and here are the rules regarding the type of shotgun required.

"Any side-by-side or single shot shotgun typical of the period from approximately 1860 until 1899 without automatic ejectors, with or without external hammers, having single or double triggers is allowed. Lever action, tubular feed, exposed hammer shotguns of the period are allowed, whether original or replicas. The only slide action shotgun allowed is the Model 1897 Winchester shotgun, whether original or replica. Certain shooting categories require a specific type of shotgun and ammunition to be used. Military configurations are not allowed (i.e., trench guns). Please see the shooting categories for further information.

SHOTGUN GAUGES

• Side-by-side, single shot, and lever action shotguns must be centerfire of at least 20 gauge and no larger the 10 gauge.

• Slide action shotguns must be centerfire of at least 16 gauge and no larger than 12 gauge.

• Side-by-side, single shot, and lever action centerfire shotguns in .410 gauge are allowed within the Buckaroo Category only."


There's no mention of the maximum length of the barrel so it seems that a 30" barrel would be fine.

:)
 
1858 I'll bet that there was a fair amount of European hardware floating around towards the end of the 19th century, of all sorts. Using, say a Spartan at least your connected to an American company. And in today's global market who can say where all the various parts of a shotgun originate.
Though I can understand Doc's point of view, personally I'd rather is an old Mustang dragged out of the scrap yard and built into a street rod before meeting the crusher. Gun shops are full of guns looking for a second chance at being productive. And if that means alterations so be it. Giving an old gun a second chance is noble.
Awhile back I wanted an 870 as a go to gun to protect the home. I wasn't about to buy a plastic and matte gun. So i searched the the gun shops till I found an old Wingmaster for a couple off hundred dollars. Took the gun home and throughly clean it and the next day took it to the range for a round of trap, two actually because my friend Pete used it for the second round. And that night I took the pipe cutter to the barrel. But I did it all with reverence and respect. Be cool, be safe. TKM
 
1858, please don't cut a '97. There are many that have been "modified" for cowboy action. I see them all of the time for sale. Usually $50.00-$100.00 less than and "unmodified" one. Look on the auction sites. A 30" '97 swings about as light as you can ask for, a result of near perfect engineering by the late John Moses Browning.
 
A shortened barrel would provide a larger spread which would make it easier to hit the intended target.
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No. This is not correct.

Barrel length has nothing to do with pattern density.

A full choked 18" bbl will place the same amount of shot in a circle as a full choked 30" bbl.

If you want a wider pattern, have the jug reamed, don't cut the barrels.

And in my experience a short barrel will wig wag all over an intended target more than a long barrel. A log bbl is easier to hold steady, especially on a moving target.

Furthermore, when shooting a shotgun, one has NO BUSINESS WHATSOEVER "aiming" in a way that a wig-wagging barrel will effect impact. Swing and shoot, turkey and slugs aside.

Oh, and in reply to the OP...

Don't cut the barrels. If you do, your "American Iron" will have less value than the imports you deride.
 
Nothing wrong with a long authentic shotgun in CAS. The targets are so easy to hit that the long barrels will not be a detriment.
 
Military configurations are not allowed (i.e., trench guns).
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Note this in the rules posted before. Wouldn't this not allow a sawed off '97 ? Wouldn't this convey that the shotgun would have to be in factory configuration ? I know coach guns came in a short barrel configuration from the factory, but the only short barrel '97 was a Trench gun. Just curious ...
 
What the SASS rules are trying to avoid are the trench guns with bayonet lug and heat shield.

There are plenty of short '97s being used for CAS.

Why not a short Norinco '97 and keep the original Winchester intact?
 
Well, it's now a moot point since I just purchased an 1897 "riot" gun!!

Winchester 1897 "Riot" gun

I spoke to Jerry at Collector's Firearms this morning and he confirmed that this is a very nice shotgun. It's a factory original "riot" gun and the barrel is marked accordingly i.e. not chopped!! :) . I wanted a fixed frame version rather than a take-down one and this one looks to be in very good condition. The only piece that doesn't look original is the butt plate so that's something that I'll need to look into. I purchased the shotgun for $995 which based on the cost of other "original" 1897s I've seen on the internet in much worse condition is a fair price. I'm happy to give this one a good home and will take good care of it. With the shorter barrel it could also serve as a very good home-defense gun.

:)
 
I should add that the serial # E7054XX indicates that it was manufactured sometime in 1921.

1921 700428
1922 715902

:)
 
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