Cimarron Model P again.

[mec]

SAAMAN had one of their "American Finish" ( bone charcoal/blue)cavalry models on order for several months. So far they have missed several promised delivery dates so, he bought one of the Model P 7.5 " models with the original stampings and inspector cartouche and the standard Model P finish.
In contrast to the two WCF caliber Model P's we shot earlier, this one had some prominent shortcomings. The BC gap is narrower at 12 o'clock than at 6 though it tends to shoot reasonable 3 inch groups with lead bullet loads at 25 yards. The real irritation is that the sight is leaning significantly to the right with the top barrel labeling obviously off kilter also. The revolver hits about five inches left from the 25 yard bench and he is unsure if he can screw the barrel in far enough to compensate. Trying to bend the front sight on a Uberti results in the sight snapping off.

Here, he has removed the varnish and revealed the underlying walnut grips and their interesting grain.

These came with over-tall front sights for easy regulation and hit exactly on horizontally"

The issues with the two short Model Ps were Perceptible end float with the 32-20 and slightly premature bolt drop with the 38-40. I lightly peened the cylinder bushing and removed the end float from the 32-20. The 38-40 functions properly but would need a replacement bolt fitted to drop it in the cylinder notch lead.
I suppose buying a Uberti Cimarron is still something of a crap shoot.

 

[Old Fuff]

mec:

Cylinder end-shake isn't unusual in SAA style revolvers, including Colt's. I too used to streach the front of the cylinder bushing, but there is a better way if you have a 1st or 2nd generation Colt, or an exact replica of one.

Brownell's (www.brownells.com) sell a little washer or "bearing," that you drop into the front of the cylinder after pulling out the bushing. Put the bushing back, reassemble the cylinder, and you'll find most if not all of the end-shake is gone.

I have had pretty good luck with Cimarron Firearms. Concerning the one in question, it should have been sent back for repair or replacement in the first place. Now that the finish on the stocks has been removed I have no idea what their reaction might be.

Oh, and you're right. Don't try to bend the front sight - always turn the barrel if possible.

 

[mec]

That endshake washer would be the better way to go, particularly with a recoiling cartridge. I do believe that stretching the bushing as I did will hold up very well with the 32 wcf.

What the owner will do with that 7.5" will be turn the barrel in if it will go or widen the rear notch on the bias to correct for windage. He's managed this sort of thing before. The ideal situation would be that the manufacturer would trouble itself to get them right in the first place. The next best thing would be a prompt and reliable repair/replacement service. The present situation in getting Cimarron/Uberti to stock the products or to fulfill promises in ref: delivery dates resembles the situation we had a decade and more ago. The distributors who had the full range of imported black powder revolvers a few months ago have either cut way back or dropped the products altogether. Something to do with the dollar/vs Euro, raw materials and the current events impacting those. It seems probable that sending the revolver back might not work out.

Interestingly enough, the expected delivery of a semi-custom USFA single action is about three months. The similarly finished "American Finish" Cimarron/Uberti revolver doesn't arrive after six to nine months.

 

[Brasso]

I recently purchased a 4.75" model P in .44 special. I'm not as knowledgeable about these saa's as you seem to be so I can't comment on the particulars about cylinder gaps and such. But the one I got shoots extremely well. With 240gr cowboy loads it's dead on for POI at 15yds. I haven't loaded anything else for it yet, but so far I'm pleased. It did have a bent knob on the cylinder pin that didn't effect the firing of the weapon as it was the knurled end that never contacted the frame, but Cimmaron did send me a free replacement. The lockup is very tight. The only thing I'm worried about is long term durability with slightly hotter loads such as a 250gr cast bullet at 950-1000fps. This is what I was hoping to use in it as a woods/hunting load. Do you have any experience with these guns using warm loads?

 

[mec]

my warmish loads have been confined to Rugers but years ago, it was not uncommon for hunters to load the Keith circa 250 grain swc to 1000 fps. Hal Swiggert-a texas based gunwriter used 10 grains of Unique and this was listed in some of the old reloading manuals as maximum. He called this the standard .45 hunting load and used it in first and second generation Colts. I have found the current Unique to produce higher velocities than the old powder from Hercules and Alliant though magazine articles regarding the "
cleaner burning" unique generally concluded that it was unchanged. My 45 loads are consistently faster with 7.5 of the new stuff pretty much duplicating 8 of the older powder. Velocities with my moderate 44 magnum loads jumped over 100 fps with the new powder. In the interest of extended gun life, I would not load more than 8 grains of current Unique with 250-265 grain lead bullets. The several Colt, Uberti and USFA SAAs we have here will generally get from 900 fps to just under 1,000 fps with that load depending on the individual gun. This weekend, a friend knocked down a fairly small hog with a 35 Remington contender and then pinned him to the ground with the 8 grain unique load through the neck. He got full penetration and the bullet zing-whined off the ground and away.

A couple of decades ago, when Colt briefly re-issued the .44 special New Frontier in .44 special, the gunwriters of the time immediately loaded the Keith solid head combo of 240-250 lead swc over 17 grains of 2400. Nothing blew up but having seen the remarkable amount of endshake developed by a lot of first generation Colts, I would be unwill to strain things much beyond factory levels regardless of the caliber. I've shot several USFA revolvers chambered for .44 special and find them very accurate. In general, my lead bullet handloads in .45 colt shoot +-2" at best from the bench at 25 yards while the various .44 lead bullet loads I've shot shoot considerably better. It could be a fluke but the only consistently 1-1.5" groups Ive show with the .45 Colt ctg have been with jacketed bullets loaded for Ruger blackhawk/vaquerros. Note that the model p in 38-40 shot a 2" group from the bench and I shot bench groups of 1.4 at 25 yards and 3.7" at 50 yards with the 32-20 and 115 grain lead bullet loads.

With the results you have gotten with your new .44, I wouldn't worry about the b/c gap or anything else. It sounds like you have a real shooter.

 

[Brasso]

I was thinking that the old load of 7.5grs Unique with a 250gr bullet would be about perfect. I hope that this isn't too much for the Cimmaron.

 

[mec]

I'm hoping the same thing. I'm using it in my USFAs with the commercial cowboy bullets, the traditional 454190 rnfp and the keith. and getting mid 800's from both revolvers. The USFA and the Cimarron /Uberti have common ancestry in that USFA used to build up their revolvers on uberti imported parts.
We compared cylinders from a 1910 Colt, a Uberti and a USFA and found that the diameter of the Usfa and Uberti were exactly the same while the Colt was marginally smaller. This wouldn't ammount to permission to use heavy loads but it does provide at least a little extra material where it counts

250 grain CAS bullet Velocity Spread 7 1/2 Velocity Spread 4 3/4
7.5"856 36 4 3/4"'873/16sread/2,1-5 shot group @25yds

454 190 sized .452
265 grains as cast 7.5: 877/ 51spread 43/4"892/40/1.9" group

452424 260 grain cast soft
7.5"845/35 4 3/4" 866/8fps spread/8/ 2.3 25 yds

Colt vintaage 1956 7.5" Barrel Velocity with CAS bullet =928
Uberti 7.5" Barrel velocity =886

The 7.5" USFA is slower than the others and also has a somewhat wider b/c gap at 4-5 thousanths as opposed to about .002 for the other revolvers.

 

[Brasso]

I did measure my P cylinder and did find that it was a bit larger than the specs given on the Colt's also. Of course the real question is frame strength and whether it will stretch compared to the Colt or USFA. I'm not familiar with the heat treating in the Uberti's.

 

[mec]

I'm not familiar with the heat treating in the Uberti's.

I'm not familar with the heat treating or metallurgy on any of them. I would tend to treat them all as equal regarding load levels. Some early colts actually have dimples on the inside of the chambers under the bolt notches. Combination of overly deep notches and thing cylinder walls I suspect.

I also guess that the massive end-float I see in earlier colts is from bashing of the cylinder bushing rather than frame stretch though either factor would account for it.

 

[Old Fuff]

I also guess that the massive end-float I see in earlier colts is from bashing of the cylinder bushing rather than frame stretch though either factor would account for it.

Your guess is right again. The original base pin (cylinder) bushings were grooved at the front to provide extra clearence for black powder fouling and never changed - even then they came out with the .357 Magnum option in about 1935 or 36. The groove weakens the bushing where it most need support, and it will give long before the frame does. The Colt's in .357 Magnum had special steel and heat treating in the cylinder, but the only modifications made to the frame were to eliminate the fouling cup in the top strap up by the back end of the barrel.

In this day and age I've often wondered why Colt didn't leave that now useless groove off of the base pin bushing. Notice you don't find any similar groove on Ruger's single actions.

 

[Jim March]

Uberti started doing slightly oversize cylinders years ago. USFA started life re-working Ubertis stateside and gradually transitioned to all-US manufacturing - so it's no surprise they retained the Uberti-pattern cylinder.

Ruger's New Vaquero is also fractionally oversize from Colt SAA practice.

 

[mec]

...the fouling cup..

Those things were huge and had to be a weak point in the frame. It seems like kind of a good thing they left the base pin and bushing the same as people persist in shooting black powder in these things.

The cimarrons do pretty well with black power but I'm not willing to risk the turnbull work on the USFAs with it.

 

[Old Fuff]

It seems to me that the relative few that still shoot black bowder in their single actions, do so in guns that don't have the fouling cup in the topstrap.

That being the case, the groove in the base pin bushing probably isn't necessary either. Since bushings can be switched so quickly and easily I'm a bit surprised that no one offers a solid-headed bushing without the groove.

But anyway, it was a thought...

 

[wcwhitey]

Brasso, the 7.5 245 grain Lyman 429421 is the classic Skeeter Skelton load. They should be fine but would be the upper limit IMHO. That load is a tack driver for me, has become my favorite in .44 Special. If you are worried about the pressure try 6.9 Grains of Unique with the same bullet. Mild but accurate as well, will do about 850 fps for ya. Good Luck, I seem one coming to me as well because they are one of the few makers that put the guns out in .44 Special. Bill

 

[mec]

A while back, I had a 6.5" Smith Heritage model in .44 special. It was a "fast" revolver-probably because of the barrel length. It ran the 421 bullet with 7 grains of (old) Unique at 929fps. I would expect the new stuff to be somewhat faster but maybe not.

 

[wcwhitey]

Agreed Mec, depends on the gun and the barrel length. In my guns he 6.9 load barely breaks the 800's and hardly expands the brass enough to keep it from discoloring. The 7.5 load shoots like the .44 Special was intended to. Still no signs of pressure but I will agree that it is at the upper limit of some guns. I would not shoot it in a Charter Bulldog or a gun of questionable metallurgy. In a modern gun closely copied after a Colt SAA it does not bother me at all. They are not Magnums but they are not 100 year old guns or collectors items. I don't want to stray the post but the only thing I can find about Unique that has changed is the shape of the granules, more uniform, intended to provide a cleaner burn. A little cleaner it is, but after going way down with my loading, I have slowly worked my way back up to where I was before the change. No problems with pressure and it is a little cleaner. LOL Bill

 

[Z71]

In Regards to the "charcoal blue" option mentioned in the first post.

I have a Stoeger/Uberti blackpowder frame 4 3/4" .45 Colt. It had(had!) charcoal blue finish when new. Revolver is about 4 years old, been fired maybe 300-400 times, played with a bunch as in been handled cocked etc.

The charcoal blue finish is beautiful when new, but not so durable in service. The blue wears off the grip strap easy and quick. Also wears pretty quick overall. The Uberti charcoal blued finish has also turned from brilliant blue to a rootbeer tinge patina on much of the pistol. Does look much better than those artificialy aged Peacemaker's Uberti has(at least to me).

Just didn't hold up near as well as an inexpensive American Arms Uberti Colt .44-40/44 Special clone with regular blue finish, I had previously owned.

As for the blackpowder/old style frame, I actually like that. While I miss the "no screwdriver" cylinder removal of the new style guns, the Stoeger Uberti Colt clone makes up for it in "cool" factor!

 

[Bullet Bob]

You guys do know that Colt still makes these things, don't you?



Just kidding, of course. Mike, what do you mean you "had" a S&W Heritage .44 - say it ain't so!

 

[mec]

Yeh. I swapped it in a while back. Wasn't getting much use.

 

[cottonmouth]

P Jr.

I only have a model P Jr. but it's a fun little plinker. I need to find a leather shoulder holster for when I'm in the fishing boat and the cottonmouths are out.

J.B.