Citizens stopping potential mass shootings

[nyrifleman]

I recently got into a discussion with a quasi-anti-gun friend of mine. He's not really anti-gun, guns are just not an issue that's very important to him, but he does tend to sympathize with progressive/liberal political positions, including on the matter of guns.

So anyway, I pointed out to him that there are plenty of potential mass shootings that are stopped by armed citizens. He was skeptical, but a quick Google search turned up 4 in 2012 alone that made the news -- which is certainly enough to make the point. However, I really want to load for bear in case I get into an argument with a hardcore anti somewhere down the line.

Can you help me put together a list of thwarted mass shootings (or other mass murder attempts)? If you cited a news source, that would be awesome. What I have so far:

April 2012, Aurora CO Church shooting stopped by off-duty cop in congregation
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/23/police-congregation-likel_n_1446969.html

March 2012, NC Church shooting stopped by armed citizen
http://www.goupstate.com/article/20120325/ARTICLES/120329781/1112

December 2007, CO Church shooting stopped by armed security guard
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/dec/11/nation/na-shoot11

April 2012, Salt Lake City mass stabbing:stopped by armed citizen:
http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4...L1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx#.UA3BQ5iNMfH.facebook

January 2002, Appalachian School of Law shooting stopped by armed citizens:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

August 2012, TX mass shooting stopped by armed citizen (including saving the life of a cop who was pinned and taking fire from a gunman):
http://www.guns.com/texas-gun-owner-shoot-out-10236.html

 

[GEM]

Don't forget the UTexas Tower where armed citizens kept Whitman pinned down and stopped the killing until 2 lawman and one civilian got him.

But on the downside, Tacoma mall where the armed citizen basically couldn't do it and got shot.

Tyler Courthouse, armed citizen seems to have saved lives but was tactically not up to speed and got killed.

 

[PowerG]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting

 

[paramedic70002]

The December 2007 church shooting was NOT a security guard. Jeanne Assam was a church member (and former police officer) who volunteered to serve on her church's security team as a private citizen.

 

[nyrifleman]

The December 2007 church shooting was NOT a security guard. Jeanne Assam was a church member (and former police officer) who volunteered to serve on her church's security team as a private citizen.

Ah, thank you, I was not aware of that. And of course, the media fails to report it.

Thanks for the posts, guys, if you know of anything else, keep 'em coming.

 

[leadcounsel]

You and he are missing the point. It's not how many violent crimes are stopped, the important number/figure (which is immesurable) are the violent crimes that are NOT Initiated... I've read that these numbers are estimated at many millions every year...

Further, history shows that Governments are VERY oppressive to unarmed citizens - Russia, China, Iraq, Iran, etc.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Good thread because the Media likes to skip over stories like this.

 

[GEM]

I don't think there is an estimate of deterred crime in the criminological literature. You are probably thinking of Kleck's estimate of 2 million or so DGUs based on his surveys. That high number is controversial and the estimates range from the 50K to the 2 million.

There is evidence of deterrence effects in burglarly where in the USA they have moved to the day time as compared to night. Criminals report that they try to avod armed folks but I really don't think we have a solid deterrent number. Certainly, we don't for rampages. The one clear case is where an anti-semite switched targets from a Hebrew school with a guard to one without.

It is hard to say that with folks bent on suicide that armed folks deter rampages.

 

[leadcounsel]

Even taking LOW end estimates, the argument against guns is a loser. Imagine 50,000 net lives saved due to gun ownership and CCW. Should be clear that guns = less crime.

Now take the higher figure, some 2 million violent crimes deterred annually.

Heck, I'd even say that it's significantly more than that; the crimes that people never even consider starting because of gun owners....

 

[Skribs]

This is all well and good, but antis are anti. I have a coworker that has said, one sentence apart, that mass shootings are proof that any idiot can get a gun and kill people, (then I brought up that a CCW could stop him) and apparently the gun that is so simple for a mass murderer is so complex in the hands of a "normal person" that they are not likely to be able to stop him.

 

[ny32182]

Key point to re-hash is that mass shooters NEVER seem to just get bored and quit shooting on their own. They are stopped only when confronted by force. It might come from an armed citizen, or the police... they might be killed, or kill themselves, but either way it only occurs once they are confronted in kind with violence or the threat of violence, in EVERY single case that I can recall ever hearing about.

 

[One_Jackal]

There is no way to count the crimes that an armed public prevents. There is no way to know how many times a crook decided not to commit a crime because he might encounter armed resistance. The crimes that are stopped because an armed citizen was present look good in the news. But they are still failures just the same as if the criminal was successful. When the system is working there is no news to report. That is the part the Anti-Gun people don't get.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Should be clear that guns = less crime...

The problem can be that in many ways the data is equivocal. We need to be very careful about making claims that we can't substantiate. Claims which can be shown to be suspect will hurt us. It's vital to our interests that we establish and maintain the highest levels of credibility.

It's fashionable among us to link declining crime rates to an armed citizenry. But correlation does not prove causation.

In NYC, beginning in 1990, the crime rate dropped precipitously. Murders were reduced by two-third, felonies fell by 50%; and by 2000, felonies on the subways had declined 75% (The Tipping Point, Malcolm Gladwell, Back Bay Books, 2002, pg. 137). The RKBA and liberalized right to carry laws certainly had nothing to do with that.

What we can substantiate by collecting data on successful defensive gun use, especially published accounts, is that there are many ordinary people who have been able to avoid becoming victims of violent crime because they did have guns.

...I have a coworker that has said, one sentence apart, that mass shootings are proof that any idiot can get a gun and kill people,...

A useful response is to point out some of the rampage murders that didn't involve firearms: e. g., Bath School (bombing, over 40 dead including 38 school children); Happy Land (arson, 87 dead); Priscilla Ford (killed 7 and injured 23 people by driving her car onto a crowded Reno sidewalk); etc.

 

[Skribs]

A useful response is to point out some of the rampage murders that didn't involve firearms: e. g., Bath School (bombing, over 40 dead including 38 school children); Happy Land (arson, 87 dead); Priscilla Ford (killed 7 and injured 23 people by driving her car onto a crowded Reno sidewalk); etc.

You're assuming the person I'm talking to is rational. In her eyes, "they could have used something else" isn't an excuse, the fact that a gun was used makes it more evil.

 

[Frank Ettin]

A useful response is to point out some of the rampage murders that didn't involve firearms: e. g., Bath School (bombing, over 40 dead including 38 school children); Happy Land (arson, 87 dead); Priscilla Ford (killed 7 and injured 23 people by driving her car onto a crowded Reno sidewalk); etc.

You're assuming the person I'm talking to is rational. In her eyes, "they could have used something else" isn't an excuse, the fact that a gun was used makes it more evil.

It's still always useful and important to put the facts out there. Sometimes doing so has a delayed effect. At the very least, it's good practice for you.

 

[BRE346]

My gun will be used to prevent or stop violence.
That's what I got it for

 

[Owen Sparks]

Ever notice that these mass shootings usually happen in places like schools where the victims are not likely to be armed? There has never been a mass shooting at a gun show, shooting range or hunting camp.

 

[nyrifleman]

Well, my argument to my friend was that armed citizens use weapons all the time to STOP mass shootings. We didn't discuss deterrence. We also didn't discuss defensive gun use.

The other half of my argument was that in Western Europe, where there is overall lower crime, overall stricter gun laws and overall less guns, there are just as many mass shootings per capita (yes, per capita):
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/229929/gun-control-and-mass-murders/john-r-lott-jr?pg=1

(Except that the link doesn't include things like the Norway shooting, and a few other recent mass shootings in Europe.)

 

[Skribs]

It's still always useful and important to put the facts out there. Sometimes doing so has a delayed effect. At the very least, it's good practice for you.

I don't think so with this person. Her boyfriend says he has a bugout bag (guns weren't even mentioned, just clothes and such), and she says that he's paranoid. Her reason for why a BOB is a bad idea? She couldn't fit all her books in it. Therefore, you're paranoid if you have a BOB. Yeah...can't get through to people when this is their logic.

 

[leadcounsel]

Nobody is safe ANYWHERE from mass murder, unless you stay away from 'masses' of people. Norway is very anti-gun. Nearly impossible to get a gun there. Despite this, this lunatic used a bomb to kill 8 and wound many others, and then separately went on a shooting rampage killing another 69 people.

The 2011 Norway attacks were two sequential terrorist attacks against the government, the civilian population and a Workers' Youth League (AUF)-run summer camp in Norway on 22 July 2011.

The first was a car bomb explosion in Oslo within Regjeringskvartalet, the executive government quarter of Norway, at 15:25:22 (CEST).[1] The bomb was made from a mixture of fertiliser and fuel oil[11][12] and placed in the back of a car.[13] The car was placed in front of the office of Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg and other government buildings.[14] The explosion killed eight people and injured at least 209 people, twelve of them seriously.[8][9][10]

The second attack occurred less than two hours later at a summer camp on the island of Utøya in Tyrifjorden, Buskerud. The camp was organized by the AUF, the youth division of the ruling Norwegian Labour Party (AP). A gunman dressed in a homemade police uniform and showing false identification[15][16] gained access to the island and subsequently opened fire at the participants, killing 69 of them,[5][6] and injuring at least 110, 55 of them seriously;[9][10] the 69th victim died in a hospital two days after the massacre.[7] Among the dead were personal friends of Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg and the stepbrother of Norway's crown princess Mette-Marit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

So, guns, bombs, pointy sticks, flaming gas, rope, knives, machetes, etc... humans are violent. No artificial 'feel good' laws will save you from a lunatic bent on murder. However, America is relatively safe and I attribute that to massive private gun ownership.

 

[GEM]

Now take the higher figure, some 2 million violent crimes deterred annually.

That is not what the word 'deterred' means. The two million DGUs mean that the gun was used in some fashion. It was shown to the bad guy or it was actually used.

Deterred means that the crime NEVER started at all because the BG thought there would be a gun at the location.

 

[GEM]

BTW, we should know our facts.

There have been mass shootings or attempts at places that were known to be armed:

1. Tacoma Mall - a shall issue state. Good guy screwed up.
2. Tyler Courthouse - LEOs a plenty.
3. Hunting - the VietNamese BG who took on hunters that he felt insulted him.
4. Google on armed robberies at gun stores - they do happen.
5. Rampages where folks enter police stations - google it.
6. Gabby Gifford's - a shall issue state and CCW types present.
7. Texas Tower - in those days, guns aplenty on campus or nearby.
8. Colorado church - shall issue locale and a success for the good guys.

We have to make reasonable argument, so I hope we don't make outrageous claims of deterrence or never happening at X, Y or Z. We should also know what the words mean.

The deterrence argument is hard to make based on empirical evidence. Hard to know a negative. We do know that many of these folks want to die and know that they will be faced with armed force in just a few minutes. At that point they may kill themselves as part of the plan. The Sikh temple killer did just that. So did the Colorado church killer. Cho at VT also.

The argument for carry is that you can stop the killer. That's better than deterrence, IMHO. However, you'd better be able to put your training cards on the table or you won't sound realistic. I hear that quite a bit and personally think that if you put yourself forward as an intervener, you need to take the time to have reasonable skills.

 

[2zulu1]

The "American Rifleman" publishes a page every month of armed citizens across the nation who defend themselves with firearms.

 

[Mikey Idaho]

Too lazy to look it up since I'm working but i'd be curious what percentage of mass shootings in the US occur in either posted gun free areas (church, theatre, government buildings, ect) or states that don't allow CCW.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[funklord12]

There was a news story a couple months ago of a CHL carrier stopping a stabbing spree. IIRC it happened in Salt Lake city.