Has a citizen with a gun ever stopped a mass shooting?

[Browning]

Conversely, in several pages, nobody has presented a REAL LIFE scenario in modern times where a person went back to his vehicle to get his truck gun to then stop a terrorist attack, or even a mass shooting.

Okay, here's two.

An extremist attack in the form of a beheading and attempted beheading (I don't think anyone is going to try and argue that he wouldn't have continued his attack and stabbed and beheaded more people if he wasn't shot) and a school shooting.

Both had to retrieve the weapon from their vehicle. One because it was a school and the other because he wasn't carrying a pistol even though he was a reserve deputy and for whatever reason wasn't carrying a pistol.


Principal With a Gun Stopped a School Shooter (*Click*)

“He was so cool and calm. I saw him shoot a kid, and he ejected the shell,” says assistant principal Joel Myrick. “He was walking along, thumbing fresh rounds into the side port of the rifle.”

Minutes later, Assistant Principal Joel Myrick chased Woodham down outside the school, held him at bay with a Colt .45-caliber automatic pistol he kept in his truck in the school parking lot. He forced Woodham to the ground and put his foot on the youth’s neck.

Muslim extremist stabbing and beheading halted by CEO and reserve deputy who had to retrieve his AR-15 from his vehicle (*Click*)

Personally I think truck guns are a bad idea due to the issue of theft unless in a rural environment, but many times in modern day America people have to leave their guns stowed in their vehicle due to laws where they can't carry legally.

Ever had to lock up your carry gun to enter a hospital, nursing home, courthouse, school or other building with a legally posted 30.06 sign? There you go.

 

[we are not amused]

I don't think ANYONE here is against being armed when that person has positive control of the arms. But like the woman killed by her child who discharged her purse gun recently, when you don't have positive control of your gun in public, disaster can and often does happen.

Think of it this way. There are nearly 300 million vehicles registered in the US. According to the FBI around 720,000 vehicles were stolen in 2012 and 700,000 in 2013 (a slow but steady decline annually). I don't have the figures available, but it's fair to say that simple vehicle burglarly is easily 3-fold that figure (given it's faster, easier, and more spontaneous), and the FBI states that about $1 billion of property was stolen from automobiles in 2013. Also, most murders involve a firearm and a large percent of robberies and assaults involve a gun.



So that means that 26 percent of burglaries were vehicles, amounting to over $1,000,000,000 in property losses.

Certainly a fair number guns, certainly more than a few, handguns, rifles and shotguns were stolen last year from car thefts and burglaries. Even if 1 in 1000 of those victims kept a dedicated truck gun, you're talking about THOUSANDS of guns turned over to criminals. Those guns enter the illegal stream and foreseeable are used in crimes later.

Conversely, in several pages, nobody has presented a REAL LIFE scenario in modern times where a person went back to his vehicle to get his truck gun to then stop a terrorist attack, or even a mass shooting. There are anecdotal or rare historical examples... but I'm simply asking for a modern, real world example... Heck I'd even settle for someone painting a realistic scenario where this could happen... where you are in a location or establishment, shots by armed attackers fired, and you run out to your car and get your SKS and come back in guns blazing to save the day...

I totally, 100% support your RIGHT to keep your truck gun. I've carried them in the past, and would still do under certain circumstances going on a long distance trip or into the wilderness/rural areas. But with rights comes responsibilities... and it's more RESPONSIBLE to make the decision to keep the rifle at home when you're running into the city for an afternoon... because it's MUCH MUCH more likely to get stolen and end up in the hands of a gang banger than be called into legitimate duty.

You are being some what silly in your blanket prohibition against gun in cars.

First, as I stated, the truck gun is not for self defense. It is there for critters, varmints, and pest control and the occasional impromptu recreational shooting.

My guns are stored safely, and I have no compunction about going into a big city with the gun in my truck. For that matter, I have my concealed carry pistol with me, and if I go into a Federal building, Courthouse or other prescribed buildings, the pistols stay in the car.

For your information, there are a variety of ways to secure guns in vehicles that are safe, and very theft resistant. Go to any gun store or go online and get yourself educated on the different ways of securing guns in vehicles.

For you to assume that I don't know how to safely secure my guns is a bit arrogant and silly on your part.

 

[hso]

The beheading is going to be a tough sell considering it is a workplace violence incident and a knife was used as opposed to a firearm. It can help the OP as an example of a firearm used to stop the attack, but there's no gun and there are too few people to qualify as a "mass shooting".

The Pearl High shooting is a perfect example as it meets the FBI's criteria for both a mass shooting and a school shooting and clearly stands out as an example of a civilian firearm used to stop further bloodshed in a mass shooting.

 

[Browning]

The beheading and double stabbing in Oklahoma is about as much 'Workplace Violence' as the Ft Hood Mass Murder. Sure, both offenders worked in each location. However there's an obvious undercurrent of religious extremism in both cases that the government doesn't really want to address. Easier to just pretend that it's strictly workplace violence and that there wasn't any other motivation present.

I personally think that's a simplistic way of looking at it and not true at all given their statements both before and after, but YMMV. :Shrug

---

For securing guns there are always these safes that replace your center console or on trucks there's bed mounted tool boxes.



Going to have to leave your gun in your vehicle at some point.

 

[Thermactor]

There was one in Colorado where a guy showed up at a grocery store to shoot his estranged wife, he had a bunch of guns including a .50 cal of some sort, that he ambushed a responding cop with. A bystander, some kind of IRS agent if I recall, stopped the carnage with a pistol.

The problem with that example is that antigunners ears perk right up at that situation and conclude "We need more armed IRS agents!"

 

[Warp]

Certainly a fair number guns, certainly more than a few, handguns, rifles and shotguns were stolen last year from car thefts and burglaries. Even if 1 in 1000 of those victims kept a dedicated truck gun, you're talking about THOUSANDS of guns turned over to criminals. Those guns enter the illegal stream and foreseeable are used in crimes later.

You assume that every 'trunk gun' is stolen when a vehicle is broken into. That is not going to be true.

 

[Thermactor]

You assume that every 'trunk gun' is stolen when a vehicle is broken into. That is not going to be true.

You could keep a broken Jennings (pretty much any Jennings, right?) as a decoy gun and keep the carry gun in a hidden compartment somewhere!

 

[Warp]

You could keep a broken Jennings (pretty much any Jennings, right?) as a decoy gun and keep the carry gun in a hidden compartment somewhere!

...or you could lock up/secure the carry gun or trunk gun somewhere out of sight.

 

[we are not amused]

We are getting off the subject. Somebody ought to start a thread on how to keep weapons in a vehicle safe, although it's probably been done before, but some people evidently need to educated on it.

According to the article I read; http://news.yahoo.com/oklahoma-beheading--terrorism-or-workplace-violnce-184638839.html The assailant targeted three people, but first attacked and killed a forth simply because she was available.

True he only killed one person and wounded another, but he was stopped before he killed more. Certainly qualifies as attempted mass murder in my opinion.

 

[we are not amused]

The beheading and double stabbing in Oklahoma is about as much 'Workplace Violence' as the Ft Hood Mass Murder. Sure, both offenders worked in each location. However there's an obvious undercurrent of religious extremism in both cases that the government doesn't really want to address. Easier to just pretend that it's strictly workplace violence and that there wasn't any other motivation present.

I personally think that's a simplistic way of looking at it and not true at all given their statements both before and after, but YMMV. :Shrug

I strongly agree in both cases, plus in the Moore Oklahoma the individual made racist statements which open the possibility of racist motivation as well.

 

[benEzra]

An off duty female police officer, and member of the church, intercepted him and shot him if I remember the incident correctly.

She wasn't an off-duty police officer, nor a formal security guard; she was a regular citizen carrying a personally owned Beretta 9mm on a Colorado CHL, who along with other CHL holders volunteered to go armed during the service to provide informal security for the church services. She had worked briefly as a police officer years before, in another state, I think. Her name was/is Jeanne Assam, and she did undoubtedly save many lives.

 

[Lost Sheep]

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/va...endale_stopped_armed_citizen_self_defense.php

Off-Duty Police Officer
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/san-antonio-movie-theater-shooting_n_2315139.html
same story, different news outlet
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnew...an-antonio-theater-shooting-the-media-ignored

ignore the popups and read these 8 stories
http://clashdaily.com/2014/09/reality-9-potential-mass-shootings-stopped-good-person-gun/#

 

[leadcounsel]

You are being some what silly in your blanket prohibition against gun in cars.

First, as I stated, the truck gun is not for self defense. It is there for critters, varmints, and pest control and the occasional impromptu recreational shooting.

My guns are stored safely, and I have no compunction about going into a big city with the gun in my truck. For that matter, I have my concealed carry pistol with me, and if I go into a Federal building, Courthouse or other prescribed buildings, the pistols stay in the car.

For your information, there are a variety of ways to secure guns in vehicles that are safe, and very theft resistant. Go to any gun store or go online and get yourself educated on the different ways of securing guns in vehicles.

For you to assume that I don't know how to safely secure my guns is a bit arrogant and silly on your part.

Repeatedly stated a difference between rural and urban.

Repeatedly stated a difference between dedicated truck gun, and leaving a carry piece secured as required by law entering various areas or a temporary stored gun.

Repeatedly endorsed the RIGHT to carry a truck gun.

----

The beheading and the school shooting and church incident are good examples, kudos to the posters for posting those. Lives surely saved by truck gun carry.

I like the idea of a small safe in the vehicle provided it can be secured to the frame somehow. Or else it's just someone stealing the safe.

This isn't about who is right or wrong here, this is about a dialogue helping folks choose one direction versus the other.

So we have about 3 examples... which is a start. Hardly persuasive, but a good start.

 

[Browning]

Just to tack down the idea that any gun left in a locked/alarmed vehicle can be stolen there's this . . .







Left my carry gun in my truck in the parking lot at work (can't carry on the box) and it was stolen. Glass, alarms, vehicle locks and being hidden from view doesn't really stop burglars, they just slow them down a little. There are also no absolutely safe areas, scumbags travel everywhere.

Actually recovered the pistol from the police in a city an hour and a half north of here 6 months later covered in greasy fingerprint dust and scratched up from the piece of wire that was used as a flag. I'm lucky that I got it back at all. They took it off a 17 year old illegal after he verbally threatened some other kid over a girl. When the police made contact at his residence his mother consented to a search of his room and that's what turned up.

I was bummed out about the theft at the time, but I was more worried about some innocent being harmed with it. The truck was locked, had the alarm set and it was parked 10 yards from the Fire station windows on the side. As a result I thought they'd be safe, I was mistaken. People don't pay much attention to an alarm these days unless it's theirs. If a gun isn't safe there it isn't safe anywhere if it's only protected by glass, auto locks and noise to attract attention.

Never had a single vehicle break in at any of the stations since I've been there (since '99) except for that one time. Lucky me.

First purchase I made after it was stolen was a vehicle safe bolted to the interior. Before that I believed in having a dedicated truck gun, after that not so much unless I'm down at the lease. Only gun I've ever had stolen and I've done my best to make sure it never happens again. The thieves also missed two other guns hidden in the truck (had gone to work directly from the range).

Just saying . . . A gun that goes with you wherever beats one left in the vehicle. I'm not saying that people can't do as they wish with their guns (if you want to then go for it), but it is quicker to draw a gun concealed on your person to deal with a threat and the pistol is traveling with you so vehicle burglars are unable to steal it while you're not there.

The CEO that stopped the second beheading in Oklahoma would have been able to put a stop to it much sooner if he had a concealed pistol actually on him. The vice principal didn't have much of a choice, he couldn't carry in a school. I mean truck guns can and have been used to stop a violent incidents in the past and they'll continue to be used periodically in the future for that purpose, but a CHL gun actually on you is the quicker option.

Dedicated truck guns can also be secured in a vehicle, but in order for the weapon to remain readily accessible you're having to lock and unlock each time you enter and leave. That's a bit of a pain. That's what it takes though, imagine trying to unlock it in the middle of an incident.

 

[hso]

The nut with the knife is a workplace issue becuase he was fired.

The nut on base was purely an idologically motivated shooting.

It doesn't matter what the motivation was since the body count is all that matters.

 

[Browning]

I'll have to disagree with you there. There is some cultural and religious significance in regards to decapitation and Islam which is why the Oklahoma murderer chose that method.

"When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks," says an ayah in the Quran : Sura (chapter) 47.

Then Quran Sura 8:12 reads: "I will cast dread into the hearts of the unbelievers. Strike off their heads, then, and strike off all of their fingertips."

This second quote added to the image of a man being beheaded were posted on both the man's Facebook and Twitter accounts.

Twitter link to Alton Nolen's/Jah'Keem Yisrael decapitation post (*Click*)

Decapitations are also described in some of the earliest histories of Islam and in every decade ever since.

Muhammad's earliest biographer, Ibn-Ishaq, describes how the prophet approved the beheadings of between 600 and 900 men from the Jewish Banu Qurayza tribe following the Battle of the Trench.

So like I said, little more to it than just being 'workplace violence' and the religious motivation mattered a great deal to Colleen Hufford and Traci Johnson. Having your head sawed off is a much harder death that being shot and the reason Islamic Extremists use that method is because it terrorizes people.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Browning, that article is excellent and the legend of the snake guns continues. I consider myself accurate but a 67 yard shot is quite impressive and I doubt I could match the feat. All the more reason to go back to the range soon and try.

I think it's a bit of a purposefully obtuse move to say that off-duty cops and ex-military don't count, as the only reason it's off-duty LEO so often is because off-duty LEO probably carry concealed weapons far more often than the general public. A regular citizen, had he been carrying and engaged in the same manner, would have have had the same results as the off duty LEO in any of these cases I'd reckon. It's just a reason that more of us ought to be carrying and that we should educate our friends and family.

Also considering how badly mass shootings tend to go when no one intervenes or the response is 20 minutes later (as in the infamous tower shooting, or Virginia Tech shooting) it's absolutely fair and I think a reasonable person could assume that when a rapid response leads to little or no loss of innocent life that that is in fact proof positive that armed intervention is extremely effective.

I know I'd rather have a citizen come to my aid rather than wait for sirens and cross my fingers, that's for sure.

Sequins makes a very good point here. Most cops carry off duty. If most people carried, the ratio of cop-stops to non-cop-stops would be roughly the same.

Any public shooting can become a "mass shooting" if there is no one there to stop the shooter. Has anyone ever tallied the number of dead in some of the violent bank robberies? And who's to say that the total number of people killed by the likes of Bonny and Clyde gang don't amount to a "mass shooting"? Is there a time limit during which a shooter must do all the killing to qualify?

Bonny and Clyde were "ambushed" and their killing spree was halted at that point, and I don't think the time that elapsed from their last killing to that point was measured in seconds or minutes or hours, but at about 47 days.

I think mass shooters ought to be included with mass shootings.

Woody

 

[Armybrat]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian the Ibis View Post
University of Texas shooting. As I recall, it was the first day of hunting season (in Texas), so once his position was known everyone started shooting back once he popped his head over the ramparts, and he was no longer able to take aimed shots at people. Also, I believe it was a civilian that actually stormed the tower and shot him.

Correct. According to Wiki, 3 cops and an armed civilian stormed the tower and jointly killed Whitman with multiple gunshots in a joint effort with Martinez ultimately killing Whitman with shots from a .38 and shotgun.
Quote:
Officer Martinez later credited the numerous civilian shooters for saving "many lives" by forcing Whitman to take cover; limiting his range of targets.

It's worth noting that of the dozens of people he had killed and wounded before taking return fire, his victims were out to 500 yards.

True that a civilian (with his personal handgun) was on the observation deck of the Tower with the two APD officers - he fired a distraction shot from a different direction, never hitting Whitman. Officer Houston McCoy fired the first shotgun blast at the sniper & blew the side of his head off (the kill shot) while Officer Martinez emptied his .38 at him, then grabbed McCoy's scattergun & shot him a couple more times. Martinez got most all the credit.

For the first 30 minutes or so of the incident, Whitman was openly leaning over the observation deck parapet to shoot downwards. I could clearly see him.
It is true that many civilians, mostly students who had deer rifles in their apartments & dorm rooms, began responding with suppressive fire that kept Whitman pinned down so he could only shoot out of the drain spouts. That indeed saved many lives. His Remington Model 700 made a loud "boom", and his M1 Carbine was "pop pop pop pop.."
It all sounded almost like the Vietnam firefight sthat we saw nightly on the TV news.

I was watching most of the shooting from a distance of about 300 yards south of the Tower, crouched behind a parked car. One of the fatalities was near Littlefield Fountain about 50 yards to the east of my vantage point.
(Texas deer hunting season doesn't start until November - Whitman's rampage was in early August)