Citizens stopping potential mass shootings
- Thread starter nyrifleman
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Not according to Gladwell. But this is really getting off topic, so I suggest that you read the book.labhound said:
I'll stick with Gladwell. He presents a more cogent argument backed up with real data.
Very good point. The other thread floating around about the surgeons view on gunshot wounds states that 6 of 7 handgun victims live
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
I am not sure how you came up with this one being a potential mass shooting since the article title specifically says the congregation probably wasn't the target.
A stabbing isn't a mass shooting.
The shooting event was over by the time the two students (both off duty cops taking law courses) retrieved firearms from vehicles and found Peter O already tackled and downed by a a real life non-cop student who did not have a gun.
Maybe, maybe not. He killed two people and a couple dogs (which don't count). Stacy purportedly saved one officer as per the sheriff, but the officer had been fired at multiple times and not hit and had fired multiple times at Conner and apparently not hit Conner. So it was a standoff at that point in terms of exchanging shots.
There were no police and no CCW people at the Giffords event. It took the first officers some 4 minutes to arrive. Joe Zamudio was not at the event, but managed to show up with his gun undrawn, claimed to have nearly shot the guy holding the gun taking from Loughner, saw the shooter was already downed by people present who didn't use guns, ran over and held Loughner's feet and tried to call 911 and could not get through. In short, he made a big deal about having a gun and being the hero, but arrived late to the party and while he did help, a lot of what he claimed isn't confirmed. By his own admission, Loughner was down when he arrived, however.
The guy killed the people with whom he had a conflict and was going to fight the cops. It seems a stretch to call such incidents potential mass shootings without saying that any gunbattle with the cops is a potential mass shooting because they virtually never have just one responding officer.
The same with Tacoma Mall. McKown didn't even have he gun drawn when he yelled at the gunman, was shot multiple times, but takes credit for stopping the guy because after shooting McKown repeatedly, the guy retired to a record store and took hostages before surrendering. How McKown takes credit for stopping the guy is beyond me.
HoosierQ
Member
Well this guy in Nevada did this concept no favors. Brought his legal gun into the new Bourne movie and then proceeded to shoot himself right in the butt...literally. Probably gonna charge him with illegal discharge of a weapon just for being stupid.
Crap like this makes us look bad.
Crap like this makes us look bad.
Sebastian the Ibis
Member
What about 9/11 itself?
The U.S. Military and Police did little useful that day, but unarmed Americans foiled 25% of the attack, once they figured out the "do what the terrorists demand and wait for the professionals routine" was not going to work.
The U.S. Military and Police did little useful that day, but unarmed Americans foiled 25% of the attack, once they figured out the "do what the terrorists demand and wait for the professionals routine" was not going to work.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
I don't know of anyone who is aware any differently in terms of the military and police contributions. The grounding of aircraft apparently stopped more death and destruction than anything else.
However, what we have to work with is what we are aware of. If you want to argue within the realm of things outside of what we know, it is hard to argue there because it is outside of what we know.
I currently don't know of any police or military actions that stopped terrorist attacks on 9/11.
Idiots about, even a bunch who are gun owners and a bunch who are legal CCW folks. We are all for folks having guns for protection, but we don't mandate training or responsibility as that would infringe on our rights. It is hard to complain about the guy making us look bad when there is no requirement for him to be properly trained. When a person wrecks a car, I don't think of them making me look bad as a car driver.
michaelbsc
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I think here is a reasonable example of the dichotomy that exists which makes this a hard problem to solve.
The folks looking at the moron who wrecks his car are, for the most part, members of the "pro car" group. (Arguments aside about the differences between a Toyota Prius and a General Lee clone.) So they judge the car wrecker as a deviant from their own social normative group.
But the guy who shot up his own gluts, from the view of the non gun owner, is a member of a group of "others" instead of a "like me" person who fell from grace.
When I was a child you can bet that every farm house in the county had at least one rifle or shotgun if not more. And many had a handgun or two. Now that's not the case. But the house which does have a gun probably has a bunch of them.
So one issue is the retreat of gun ownership from the general population.
I have no good suggestion how to overcome that. I merely make the observation.
I'm acutually amazed at how many people own guns that I would never have suspected. It has come up several times in conversations with people I know and they respone "I own a gun". I've alway been an advocate of "proper" training for people that own guns, but the problem is "what is proper training" in the mind of a gun owner versus how is it going to be determined by the local, state and federal government.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
"Proper Training"
Car safety is taught from the time kids are six. And actually, somewhat earlier.
Crossing streets, seat belts, proper car seats, don't drive drunk, don't talk on phone or text while driving, stories of "what not to do" flow freely.
By the time a kid is eligible for his own driving license, he has spent literally thousands of hours in and around cars. He has had TV ads, classroom activities, parental advice, and the observations of grownups and kids alike.
It's in the culture. The kid has been steeped in it.
Compare that with gun safety.
What are they taught about guns in school? How often are they exposed to guns growing up? What's the daily volume of TV ads like for gun safety? How often is it discussed with parents? How often with peers?
You want "proper training?"
That would be where to begin.
Car safety is taught from the time kids are six. And actually, somewhat earlier.
Crossing streets, seat belts, proper car seats, don't drive drunk, don't talk on phone or text while driving, stories of "what not to do" flow freely.
By the time a kid is eligible for his own driving license, he has spent literally thousands of hours in and around cars. He has had TV ads, classroom activities, parental advice, and the observations of grownups and kids alike.
It's in the culture. The kid has been steeped in it.
Compare that with gun safety.
What are they taught about guns in school? How often are they exposed to guns growing up? What's the daily volume of TV ads like for gun safety? How often is it discussed with parents? How often with peers?
You want "proper training?"
That would be where to begin.
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