Civilian Accuracy?

Should civilians get more training for accuracy?

  • yes

    Votes: 125 71.8%

  • no

    Votes: 49 28.2%
  • Total voters
    174
  • Poll closed .
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trigun87 said:
My sister was preparing for a debate at school because of the nature of the debate which was , Handguns only for military and police and not for civilians; sadly she was on the team that would have all of us be unarmed. To the point one of her teams arguing point was the lack of training and accuracy amongst the general gun owner population. This gave me the motivation to go to the range that same day and reassure my own skills. While at the range I was spying others targets and shot placements. Boy o Boy , she might have a point on a large silhouette target some shooters shots were very erratic :what: , some hit more white than the blue silhouette. I was there for 3 hours and shoot a lot and did a lot of observing. I wanted to believe everyone was better than that, maybe the gun is not theirs maybe its rented.? Wrong they owned their firearms. I have only been shooting for 2 years and some months, and I am fairly accurate 3" group 15 yds on a good day. The only other guy that was not only decent but better than me had 4 or 5 h&k's. I am not saying police are military or any better but it makes me wonder. By the way this was several patrons between 7 and 12 people.
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I must of overlooked that line in the 2nd Amendment that stipulates one has to achieve a certain proficiency with a handgun to be able to own it.
 
So if you're not qualified as a race car driver you shouldn't be allowed to drive a car? How much training is enough? My wife and son both asked me the same question at the range about a month after I taught them to shoot (different times, and we share a range with LEO's who come there to practice and once shot qualification when we were there): "How come the cops are such crappy shots?". I told them some aren't, but the big reasons are politics, money, time, ammo, and mass issue of standardized guns to people with a variety of hand sizes and shooting abilities. I then showed her how much ammo she goes through in a year ( I showed her 3 1000 boxes of bullets on the counter opened to show her how many are in each box). She was shocked. Then I showed her her first target which she had forgotten about (silhouette at 7 yards) and the last target she shot (25 yard NRA with all blacks at 25 yards). Departments do not have the kind of budgets to train their officers to that level (I'm not sure I do either!). Bottom line: Getting good takes lots of practice, lots of ammo, and lots of time. Not always possible when you have to count nickles, regardless of public or private.
 
Ammo is a consideration too. At 25yds from a sandbag rest, my 4 5/8" Blackhawk can shoot golden sabres into the sme hole. Other loads can be all over the target at 25 ft. Sometimes people have to shoot to see what load the gun likes too.
 
So if you're not qualified as a race car driver you shouldn't be allowed to drive a car? How much training is enough? My wife and son both asked me the same question at the range about a month after I taught them to shoot (different times, and we share a range with LEO's who come there to practice and once shot qualification when we were there): "How come the cops are such crappy shots?". I told them some aren't, but the big reasons are politics, money, time, ammo, and mass issue of standardized guns to people with a variety of hand sizes and shooting abilities. I then showed her how much ammo she goes through in a year ( I showed her 3 1000 boxes of bullets on the counter opened to show her how many are in each box). She was shocked. Then I showed her her first target which she had forgotten about (silhouette at 7 yards) and the last target she shot (25 yard NRA with all blacks at 25 yards). Departments do not have the kind of budgets to train their officers to that level (I'm not sure I do either!). Bottom line: Getting good takes lots of practice, lots of ammo, and lots of time. Not always possible when you have to count nickles, regardless of public or private.
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You dont need a license to buy a car but, you need to get a permit pass a driving test by instructor, also take a written test, and also have acceptable vision. People like myself are required to wear glasses and/or contact lenses. I think thats a bit more tough than your standard firearm purchase. Dont forget a gun is a Weapon , and is designated as such. A car, lawnmower, your TV are not.Im not saying put everyone through one of those tactical schools that you see in the last few pages in combat handguns. It would be nice knowing that others are reasonably accurate. Would you like it if everyone could just by a car and drive with no form of test to see if they are adequate?Would you like blind people on the road?
 
"civilians" should be compelled by the strictest of laws backed up by long prison sentences to achieve the same levels of proficiency and accuracy as is currently mandated for criminals.
 
I think that most civi shooters are far and away better shooters, marksman, whatever you want to call them. Most M&P shooting and training is lacking to say the least.Tactics aside, I could round up 4 guys inside 10 minutes who I'd rather have in a firefight than a fireteam of Marines. And yes, I was in the Marines for 5 years.
 
The argument against is a false argument to the point of non sequitor. Civilians have firearms because it is a Constitutional right. It is a Constitutional right not because we need it, because we MAY need it.

But even if you were to accept the premise (which in a debate, I would simply reject out of hand), I would argue that the civil populace is better trained than the military.

First and foremost, LEO's are civilians. They are not in the Armed Services, per the Geneva Convention. Their training counts.

Second, from my own personal observation, civilians that I know and I have observed at my range are very good marksman. Where and how do civilians train? My first "training" was in the Boy Scouts. What a wonderful tradition that was, when I was growing up. I hope it is still the case.

I was further trained in the military. But...let's examine military training. My observation of one group that got "trained" was....they were handed side arms, told very briefly how they worked and they told to shoot at the targets. That was it. And none did very well, but most qualified. Many did not. If they qualified, they got a nice ribbon. If they did not, they were still issued a weapon when needed. OK, so much for that training.

Most of the people at my range are very good shots (many are former LEO's and former military). Many took CCW classes where they had some range instruction.

How much training does it take? Proper shooting techniques can be found on the internet. The proper stance, grip, trigger pull and breathing. You can then go to the range and practice. And if you do not do well, the range master will give you some more advice. Most civlians I know get more range time than most military officers I know.

Further, my observation has been that civilians will shoot until they find the weapon that they can use the most accurately. Thus we have many different choices. Unlike the military or LE. Glocks and Beretta are the choice of many police depts, when many officers could shoot 1911's much more accurately. Or their dept caliber is .40cal, when they might shoot 9mm or .45acp more accurately. An older couple that came to the range once, to select a gun for their personal defense, found that the .22lr was best for them. It was what they could shoot accurately and even though they knew a higher caliber would be a superior defensive weapon, they understood that accuracy was most important.

So.........it seems you could defeat such a silly proposition on many levels. Have fun.

Best

J
 
My Shooting club had it's monthly meeting yesterday. Afterwards we had a pistol bowling tournament. There were 10 of us that shot. Bowling pins at 10 yards. Bowling pin dimensions are 15 inches high, 4.75 inches wide, so it's not a hugh target. I was surprised how well we all did. Most of us were shooting 9mm semi's, one person shot a .38 revolver and the winner an XD 45 service (Looks like size matters...lol), albeit he was also the person who has been shooting the longest, about 35 years. Now maybe my club is unusual but they all seem to be pretty accurate shots maybe not bullseys shooters but reasonable combat level.
 
Training in accuracy and safety are both great ideas for any shooter but I don't believe that they can be mandated by the government without infringing on R2KBA.
 
The 'well regulated' part of the 2nd amendment means you should practice and be proficient with your arms. So yes, training is in fact part of the right to keep and bear arms.

Mandatory? No.

Practical? Yes.
 
many years ago(the late 60's to be precise), i learned to shoot from a former marine sniper. over the years i remembered the lessons taught to me by that man, and while i dont shoot anywhere near as often as i should, or would like, i have the ability to pick up just about any firearm, and shoot it quite accurately starting with round one. and i only get better as i shoot with that weapon.

as for required training, no. i believe that everyone that owns a firearm should take the time to learn to shoot properly and safely, but it should not be a requirement. some people need more practice than others, but in the end when the crap hits the fan, you always fall back on your training. and the better the training, the better you chances of survival.
 
A couple years ago I was stationed in Yuma AZ, MCAS, I shot my first ever IPSC match down there with a glock 35, right out of the box, that I owned for a couple weeks and came in 9th out of 17 shooters. I have shot a M92 and 1911 quite alot berfor I joined the Marines but the glock was a totally new thing for me. The group of shooters was a mix of local LEO's, border patrol, a couple civillans, and me. I was really really impressed with a couple of the LEO's and a couple of them looked totally lost, just like the civillans.
A couple weeks later I shot a charity event that was a single long stage of steel and pins that was a real eye opener. There were something like 24 two man teams made up of mostly LEO's both local and CA and border patrol. My partner and I came in second and we lost to a pair of LEO's, both of wich are master class IPSC shooters.
I think it boils down to this: some LEO'S/military are "gun" guys and there for enjoy shooting and strive to hone their skills. Some LEO'S/military have a gun cause its a tool of the trade and shoot good enough to Qual once a year and are happy with that. Normal every day gun owners/shooters are in the same boat, some are always trying to imporve and train and some shoot a box of shells a year and still get their deer so they are good enough for what they need.
I don't think govt mandated training is needed, the govt already has your ass in a sling if you fail to become proficent and do some thing stupid so if that ain't motovation to improve I don't' know what is.
 
Let us distinguish between "should" and "must."

Everyone should get training on firearms. Everyone should be certified in CPR. And so on and so on.

But before we start making laws to force people, or to deprive them of their rights, we should remember, training is a solution. Before we start advocating a solution, we should have a problem. Ideally, there should be a relation between the problem and the proposed solution.

What is the problem?

Is it that there are too many accidents caused by people carrying guns? Firearms accidents have trended downward for many years -- they are so low now that they would not be reported as a separate category if it were not for the politics.

Is it that citizens are shooting innocent people when using guns for self-defense? There is no data to indicate that is the case -- and as mentioned above, firearms accidents are going down, not up.

What is the problem?
 
GreySmoke2's post made me think of something.

Perhaps the people who know how to shoot aren't at the rental range with those once-a-year bozos?
 
zombienerd said:
This is a double edged sword, and the question is a little "loaded", pardon my pun.

I think most people could use a little formal training. They should seek it out on their own.

I do not think that any governing body has the right to FORCE anyone to seek training.

I answered no because of this. Sure, I think most people SHOULD seek regular training. But I don't think they should HAVE TO to be able to own a weapon.
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I agree completely.
 
AZ has the right idea, we have the Arizona Gun Safety Program in law, a shooting school that is offerred to school districts if they want to use it. I would like to see this made as mandatory in schools as Drivers Ed, i.e., an elective. Once you start down that path of requiring training to excercise a right you end up with poll taxes, literacy tests, and other mumbo jumbo used in the past to arbitrarily deny people thier rights. What would you think, if a severe anti rights individual was appointed to oversee/"improve" this government mandated training? What kind of final exam would there be? Any law or power that CAN be abused is LIKELY to be abused, Murphy's Law of Government.
 
After going to the range with the local police department I'm not too impressed with LEO firearm skills. But everyone should go to the range and improve accuracy, at the very least to be a responsible firearm owner.
 
I voted yes not because I think it should be mandatory but more of an obligation on the part of the gun owner.

I ran an IDPA type match for seven years and taught CCW for two. We had LEO's come to the matches and set in on CCW classes. The level of skill by all was not as good as it should have been. LEO's that came to the IDPA matches usually left in a state of embarrassment. A couple were actually pretty good..

On the shooting portion of our CCW classes the first time shooters and women generally scored better than men with some experience. The reason is simple,,,,,,,,they listen and learn. Instruction was there, some just felt they didn't need it until the scores were posted.

I'm not great but my own range has no targets closer than 25 yards. A bank of 8" steel plates and a 1/3 size steel IDPA target. I'm amazed by the number of people who come here to shoot and complain about the targets being too far for pistols !
 
I've seen ppl exercise their First Amendment rights and thought, "They really need to take some logic and grammar classes",

I've seen ppl exercise their right to travel freely, through the privilege of driving a car on public roads, and thought, "They really need to take some driving classes",

I've seen ppl's kids screaming and carrying on and thought, "They really need to take some parenting classes",

I dumped my bike turning a pretty routine turn and thought, "I really need to take some riding classes" (and "Ouch! road rash! road rash!").



No doubt many many ppl should take firearms safety and performance training, or at least spend a lot more time at the range (me included to be perfectly honest) .. but I don't think a Right comes with proficiency requirements - otherwise, imagine how empty the polling places would be on election day!

My $0.02 worth ...
 
a local ( to me ) gun store & range offers BYO or rental guns.
i'm thinking that on Saturdays they have a special--
if at the end of your range session your target's have no holes in them
you get a refund.

how they stay in business is a mystery to me:rolleyes:
 
I'm a pretty lousy handgun shot, but I have fun with them. I'm good enough to hit the backstop each time, though and I practice excellent range safety so I'm just a bad shot and not a public menace.:D
 
I voted more training, but it should be voluntary. Like any tool, you should learn to use it well.

lawson
 
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