Claim of self-defense nets a murder charge

[bikemutt]

http://www.columbian.com/news/2012/mar/09/charge-reduced-fatal-noise-dispute/

I've been following this local story for a couple days. Seems the accused went to confront an inconsiderate neighbor who was playing excessively loud music in his car. When he knocked on the car window he says the deceased charged him, so he shot and killed him.

The accused is claiming self-defense, the original story said the only thing he said to the police is "I was in fear of my life" (paraphrased). The prosecutor originally charged him with first degree murder and now has lowered it to second degree felony murder.

Apparently this is not the first time the deceased has been a noise nuisance, the police were called previously. Whatever the outcome of that situation was, it appears to not have made much an impression on the deceased since he continued to engage in the noxious behavior.

So I guess one question in my mind is should a person ever inject themselves in a nuisance situation personally, or always let the police handle it? If the answer is it's OK to get involved but do so unarmed, then it seems to me one runs the risk of being unable to defend against a situation should things escalate. If one gets involved and is armed, it seems based on this case as it stands, that using the weapon could have some very serious consequences.

I think I can safely say in a case such as this, I'd call the police and leave it at that. I'ts just not worth the risk regardless of which direction the confrontation proceeds.

 

[JoeMal]

Cops laugh at noise complaints calls...good luck getting that resolved by your local dept.

Maybe a better option would have been mace or OC spray but it's hard to say.

 

[Coyote3855]

I wouldn't shoot anyone for playing loud music. But then I live on 50 acres 10 miles from town.

 

[calaverasslim]

It's hard to ignore loud music and even tho the local gendarmes would not be responsive, a shooting is carrying it to the extreme.

The shooter should have walked away.

 

[vtuck2]

That guy is sooo screwed.

V

 

[outerlimit]

Cops laugh at noise complaints calls...good luck getting that resolved by your local dept.

I was charged with unlawful noise once. A renter had moved in upstairs that very day and I was unaware of it as the place had been unoccupied for months. The cops came and told me to turn it down. I did, but apparently not enough because they came back. A week later I got a letter saying that I was charged with the offense. I went to court and the city attorney never bothered to show up. I talked to the judge, said "if this is so important where is he" and he said he would normally dismiss, but it was a criminal charge so he could not. I went to court again a couple of weeks later and two cops testified against me. They said I was cooperative, but the music was too loud, I lost. I think what happened was unfair, but the cops handled (me) in this case. It was a $100 fine, but the judge lowered it to $75 because I missed work the previous court date. Let the police handle things when possible, that's what they're there for. :banghead: That and to give us speeding tickets..

 

[mbopp]

Google the Roderick Scott trial in Rochester NY.
Short story - Homeowner sees 3 teenagers breaking into cars at 3:30AM. Grabs his licensed handgun, and shoots and kills one of them in self defense. Arrested, tried and found not guilty of all charges.
Granted, he had the best defense lawyer in Rochester. I wasn't on the jury and the local press didn't give all the details but in talking to a lawyer who handles firearms cases it was his opinion the jury returned the correct verdict. Apparently the victims cousin admitted they charged at Mr. Scott in an escape attempt and that act justified the use of extreme force.

 

[andrewstorm]

the man was charged........Physically

He should have fired a warning shot or maybe he didn't have time?I was charged literally by a 6FT4 in 325 lb building inspector it was a hair raising experience! I wouldn't have been able to physically defend myself if it wasn't a bluff, as i have spondilosis,and do not carry a gun,I can see how someone can fear for there life in an instant,you must react,or not?the way some prosecutors charge people is just buisness as usual to them,under most state constitutions persons have a right to defend themselves or others in their care or in some states you can help another.some people need anger management,or jail,or the mental hospital,lynard skynard said it best when they sang"I seen a lot of people that thought they were cool,but then again ive seen alot of fools"I can see why alot of people are scared in the world today,theres no shortage on crazy people.

 

[Jeff22]

It's a lot easier to let the cops handle things. That's what they get paid for.

I've been a cop in a small town for 31+ years. We go to noise complaints. In bigger and more active jurisdictions, they might not go to a noise complaint because they're responding to a shooting, a stabbing, a rape, or a car wreck.

Many of the "self defense" shootings that result in somebody being charged and or convicted come about because a citizen tried to handle something themselves rather than call the police and let them deal with it. Don't "handle it your own way". Call the police and then stay out of their way when they respond to take care of it.

 

[andrewstorm]

jeff

to escapees nearly abducted my pregnant wife almost 20 years ago,on that mourning my wife asked why i kept that ugly gun behind the camper door?i told her id rather have it and not need it,than need it and not have it,that evening after an 90 degree day of hard work,the bad actor sneaked into the ladies shower in the campground,i truly believe the good lord awoke me and i noticed headlights shining in my camper,i looked out to see a man go in the shower door partition,i opened the camper door ugly gun and all,(and asked the man if i could help him?he then bolted,and another man looked around the partition and also bolted,i ran to the campground office and told my friend Beverly to call the troopers,who caught the escapees at the n.c. s.c. border they had already allegedly abducted one woman,the troopers shot one man dead,and took the other back to prison, thank God "and guns" and troopers." semper fidelis

 

[kyletx1911]

^^^^ good job glad it worked out well does she complain
About the ugly gun anymore(lol)

 

[AFDavis11]

I would prefer the police to handle it. Why am I going to deal with it? I don't think someone charging you, even with the intent to do bodily harm is justification for shooting them. Guys get into fights all the time. If he charges you with a weapon or you are convinced he is going to maim or kill you I suppose you have the potential for a justified shooting. When I was a cop these were the kinds of situations that kept me up at night.

 

[M-Cameron]

i honestly think people rely on police for FAR too much......

your neighbor is playing music too loudly.....simply go over, be polite, and ask him if he wouldnt mind turning it down...........not really something that police need to be called over.

 

[redneck2]

I know a guy that had the same situation. Took a gun with him, got threatened so he pulled it. Goes back to his place and a few minutes later the cops show up and arrest him for felony intimidation. He's lost his guns, right to hunt, and his job because of a felony.

Unless you're a cop, better think twice about taking a gun on someone else's property.

 

[JRH6856]

your neighbor is playing music too loudly.....simply go over, be polite, and ask him if he wouldnt mind turning it down...........not really something that police need to be called over.

Unless he's an <deleted>, tells you to mind your own <deleted> business, and turns it up louder. When I lived in an apartment, that could easily happen. When i worked apartment security, it was our most common call. Now I wouldn't care. My house has 12" thick concrete and styrofoam walls and if my neighbor held a rock concert I probably wouldn't hear it.

 

[JohnBT]

Cops may laugh at noise complaints where you live.

In addition, the Virginia ABC Dept (alcohol sales licenses) tells residents to call the non-emergency number because each noise complaint about a licensed restaurant/bar is forwarded to them and the totals can be used in an ABC hearing. Been there done that and won a couple of times.

And the city police here do show up if they have time. Live bands and djs with digital subwoofers can be heard two blocks away or more.

John

 

[Loosedhorse]

Seems the accused went to confront an inconsiderate neighbor

"Confront" is a loaded word here, and accurate I think. Any of us going armed to complain about noise--which is a reasonable thing to do--should have "Plan B: Run away and call the police" ready to go when we ring the door bell. If you're bringing a gun, bring track shoes, too.

Arrested, tried and found not guilty of all charges.

And that may happen here, too. The DA may feel that the act of going to the neighbor armed is evidence of ill will. You and I know that's ridiculous, but the DA may think that's enough to let a jury decide. Or couple that to the fact that the deceased was apparently unarmed, and the accused looks neither unable to fend off an unarmed attack nor harmed in any way.

No matter the outcome, this shooter has financial ruin to look forward to. Employers do not retain accused murderers. Even if acquitted, imagine his next job interview.

He should have fired a warning shot or maybe he didn't have time?

Search "warning shot" at THR for some lively discussions! Note that a warning shot (assuming it didn't actually hurt or kill anyone--important assumption!) still likely buys you a charge of assault with a deadly.

Which is better than explaining a dead guy at your feet, IMHO.

 

[ns66]

i think the very presence of a gun is enough to stop an aggression, unless he is equally or better armed and insane, why people keep forgetting it, or just choose to ignore it?

don't be trigger happy, if that guy charged him as claimed, i am pretty sure if the defendent stepped back and showed his handgun (without pulling trigger right away), all these loss of life and long jail time can be avoided.

 

[Sam1911]

i think the very presence of a gun is enough to stop an aggression, unless he is equally or better armed and insane, why people keep forgetting it, or just choose to ignore it?

don't be trigger happy, if that guy charged him as claimed, i am pretty sure if the defendent stepped back and showed his handgun (without pulling trigger right away), all these loss of life and long jail time can be avoided.

Perhaps. Or perhaps he calls the cops and reports that you came angrily banging on his door and then brandished a firearm at him. Then you have a he-said/she-said debate about a minor issue (noise violation) but a much more serious charge of assault -- which is what brandishing a firearm is usually counted to be.

You certainly may have the right to go ask someone to turn down their music. But there's no guarantee that will end well for you. Calling the police is certainly the safer route. Even being kept awake for a few hours waiting for them to show up is a whole lot better than ending up dead or in prison for a felony!

 

[Shadow 7D]

You must realize the rules on self defense (and all the nit picking legal details that leads most of those who know to say Avoid, Disengage, Escape, Evade) comes from the fact that you end up with a gang shootout and everybody is saying the other guy started it and they were just defending themselves.

 

[ns66]

Perhaps. Or perhaps he calls the cops and reports that you came angrily banging on his door and then brandished a firearm at him. Then you have a he-said/she-said debate about a minor issue (noise violation) but a much more serious charge of assault -- which is what brandishing a firearm is usually counted to be.

You certainly may have the right to go ask someone to turn down their music. But there's no guarantee that will end well for you. Calling the police is certainly the safer route. Even being kept awake for a few hours waiting for them to show up is a whole lot better than ending up dead or in prison for a felony!

going to parking lot to confront a stranger at 5am is a dangerous act by itself, i'd understand he carries a handgun in that case, if the guy charged him (which is an assult by itself), i think he has right to show his gun to stop an aggression since he obvious felt danger

i'd agree however going there is not a good idea to begin with

 

[andrewstorm]

hope im never in that situation......

Hope he gets a fair trial.........

 

[JRH6856]

Fred Fuller preaches "Mindset, skillset, toolset" Unfortunately, the mindset of more than a few CHL holders is something like: "I can legally carry a gun, so i can legally protect myself if a situation becomes violent." Then, having that feeling of protection, they unwittingly go from avoiding confrontation to so far as seeking it out; having the mindset that if it escalates to violence, they can protect themselves. So a neighbor who they may not know very well if at all has a loud party and they decide to go ask him to tone it down. Then they think "this might get ugly. I better take my my gun.". Or, because they carry everywhere, they don't consider leaving it at home. Then, the confrontation does become ugly. They have the gun and use it protect themself. They survive the confrontation, but they are the one that initiated it and armed themself before doing so. This may play slightly differently in different states, but the outcome will probably be the same. If you are a voluntary participant in a violent confrontation you have no affirmative argument of self-defense. And it you initiate the confrontation, it is pretty hard to argue your participation is not voluntary.

If you are armed, ask your self this before confronting anyone: "Would I do this if I didn't have a gun?"

 

[bikemutt]

If you are armed, ask your self this before confronting anyone: "Would I do this if I didn't have a gun?"

I'd been searching for a way to express this, could not have said it any better.

 

[Bonesinium]

Two things stuck out at me.

1. The shooters wife had previously (3 days prior) called police on the same person for the same noise issue. So that option wasn't going to apparently help.

2. He is being charged with 2nd degree felony murder, which if the article is correct, is a lesser charge than 2nd degree murder, but carries the same sentence. What the? Why even bother having a 2nd degree murder charge when they can always charge the other one, since it is easier, and has the same result.