Claim of self-defense nets a murder charge

Status
Not open for further replies.
I wasn't there so I can't actually offer my opinion but if people that have a concelled carry permit think that they are lincenced to take the law into their own hands, this is what will happen. I have read so many comments on this site where members seem to think that the permit to carry a deadly weapon comes with a leo badge of some sort or entitles ordinary people to take law in to their own hands and do things they wouldn't normally do without the permit and gun, that its no wonder the anti's are in full force.
If this person didn't have a permit to carry a deadly weopon, Yes, A DEADLY WEAPON, I doubt this person would be in prison right now.
I carry one the same as probably most of you do, but I never thought that I was anymore than a normal citizen that was governed by the same laws that I was before I got the permit to carry it.
Yes, someone playing load music at night when I had to get up to go to work at 5:00am would piss me off also, but their are more ways of getting even than taking a gun to a confrontation like this guy did and ending up ruining your life and going to prison for it. I would have to wonder weather this guy had endured more than he could take or if he had a very bad lapse of judgement.
He is paying for it now and the ignorant SOB is still free to make life miserable for someone else.
Use your imagination to get even instead of your temper. But for god's sake, don't end up like he did and get caught up in something like this, we are allowed to carry weapons to protect ourselves but the ramifications of the aftermath that insues after an incindent makes me wonder if its worth taking one out of the house.
I don't want killed either by a BG but I'm not spending the rest of my life in prison either over stupid crap like this.
 
if people that have a concelled carry permit think that they are lincenced to take the law into their own hands, this is what will happen
Click to expand...
Very few apparently think that. In FL (a state that has kept scrupulous records for a long time now), the subsequent criminality rate of permit holders is far below that of the general public, and the violent criminality rate is lower even than that.

But it is not zero.
If this person didn't have a permit to carry a deadly weopon, Yes, A DEADLY WEAPON, I doubt this person would be in prison right now.
Click to expand...
Might be in a funeral home instead. I do not know. All I know is he's been charged, and is claiming self-defense.
 
Andrewstorm

Your actions in that particular incident where you rescued your wife were entirely justified and thank god it turned out right . . .

That exactly describes the kind of situation where a responsible private citizen with a CCW permit should take action.

In other situations that do not have a direct and articulable threat to life, I think it's best to call the cops and let them try to sort it out. If they don't respond because of call volume, that's understandable but irritating. If they don't respond because they don't feel like it, that's reprehensible . . .
 
Coyote3855 - he didn't shoot him for playing loud music. He (claims) to have shot him because he directly threatened his life (in the defender's opinion). On more than one occasion I have stopped to help someone on the side of the road or who's car wouldn't start, if they attacked me I would defend myself, that doesn't mean I would shoot them because their car broke down.. :)
 
the kind of situation where a responsible private citizen with a CCW permit should take action.
Click to expand...

My mindset is this: I am prepared to use deadly force to protect myself and my family. There is no other situation into which I go prepared in advance to use deadly force. I am prepared to defend myself and mine, I am not predisposed to defend you and yours. This is not a hard and fast rule, but the decision to directly involve myself in the problems of others because I am armed is not one that I can or will make in advance.

When it comes to you and yours, the only action I am predisposed to take is the same as I would take if unarmed.
 
Last edited:
The article says that the shooter called the police and incriminated himself. Could it have turned out better if he had kept his mouth shut?
 
I'm glad I live where I live. The "neighbor" can turn their music up as loud as they wish, unless the wind is just right, I won't hear it. Calling teh Sheriff is jsut not an option, I will guarantee they will not show up, and i wouldn't expect them too....Actually, my youngest daughter says it is too quiet up here, and they live on their own 10 acres in the country. So, I really cannot judge this...but

I am of the opinion that if it really is bothering you that much, you politely go and just talk to the person yourself. I always OC, but the idea would not be to intimidate, eveyone around here knows my carry will be there anyway...but just a polite request can fix a problem like this more often than not.
 
Obituary says, in part, "Big in stature, Eric loved working out and being fit. He was this strong, muscular guy..."

What's he doing in the parking lot at 4:30am listening to music so loud it prompts noise complaints and/or waking neighbors up. Doesn't sound smart or considerate. Why did he "charge" the defendent?

Sounds like the deceased has at least on one prior occassion been so thoughtless and rude that the defendant's wife/girlfriend had to call 911 to complain. Generally, in my experience, calling 911 isn't done the first time - but that's speculative.

So, at about 4:30am the deceased music was so loud, and from prior unsuccessful 911 noise complaint call experience, that the defendent felt the only recourse was to walk out and talk to the man himself. Sad day in society when you can't address a minor issue man-to-man without involving the police. Fully within the right of the defendent. Sounds like he was also armed, just in case things were to get ugly. Don't know if he was within his rights to be armed there. Not enough facts. But possibly bad to go out there if he really believed he'd need the gun. But he may very well been within his rights.

Say he didn't have a gun, but when the deceased charged him the defendant hit him with a different weapon, or even with a fist and killed him. Same resulting charge?

Based on the news facts, which are rarely accurate or thorough, I would say we need more facts. Did the deceased have a weapon? Reasonable for the defendant to feel threatened? Dunno.
 
Last edited:
I hate loud car stereos and the people who play them on a very visceral level. Which is a good reason never to get in a physical confrontation with them.

Get your own system rigged up and escalate the sound war. Eventually the cops will have to come and make everyone turn everything off.

I like the Ramayana Monkey Chant for this purpose. It's odd rhythms and staccato screams carry over and interfere with the typical subwoofer-heavy nonsense the pea brains like to inflict on themselves.

There's a sample here on a nice CD of it:

http://www.amazon.com/Bali-Golden-R...=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1331443483&sr=1-1

.. and it goes on for twenty minutes!

And who knows, you might just create a new style of industrial Balinese rap.
 
Last edited:
Reasonable for the defendant to feel threatened? Dunno.
Click to expand...

initial story says there was no evidence the victim was armed. Obit says he was a big guy. Maybe the defendant was intimidated by his physical size. No mention of the physical size of the defendant.
 
I guess it would be important to see the crime scene... Does it appear that the deceased was shot IN his car or outside his car? Was the door left open, indicating haste in exiting the car, or closed, indicating no haste? Distance between the shooter and the deceased?

How loud was the music. Were there other complaints/witnesses?
 
I guess it would be important to see the crime scene... Does it appear that the deceased was shot IN his car or outside his car? Was the door left open, indicating haste in exiting the car, or closed, indicating no haste? Distance between the shooter and the deceased?

How loud was the music. Were there other complaints/witnesses?
Click to expand...

That is why I hate analyzing cases in the newspapers. They never give all the pertinent information and the info they do give is often less than accurate.
 
If you hate to analyze cases from newspaper, then why are you analyzing cases from newspapers? This has nothing to do with the size of the victim, the volume of the music, the type of music, the time of day/night, what he had for dinner, or any other unrelated details. The case will rest on whether the shooter can articulate a fear for his life and a defense of same. But by all means, continue to speculate. We haven't mentioned whether the shooter believed the big guy was having an affair with his wife. Hey, its another angle.
 
Why even bother having a 2nd degree murder charge when they can always charge the other one, since it is easier, and has the same result.
Click to expand...

The burden of proof on the state is easier to meet and they still get the tougher sentence.
 
Again, a misunderstanding of the order of things. The incident happens. The cops arrest X on homicide charges. The DA, using evidence from the police, the accused's statements, and his own ideas of what might have happened (plus other factors like his politics, his desire to be re-elected or elected to higher office, etc.) decides either that the claim of self-defense will probably hold and drops the charges, or decides to bring charges or murder (first degree, second, whatever). NOW, in court, the defendant's attorney gets to present his case that the accused is not guilty of murder because it was self defense. If the judge/jury buys that defense, the accused is free of the criminal charge. He might still face a civil complaint, but that is another story.

In other words it is not a matter of convincing the cops that the killing/assault was self defense. Self defense is an affirmative defense, in court, to a charge of murder or whatever; in other words, it is a plea, like a plea of insanity, a plea that the thing was an accident, a plea of diminished responsibility, and so on.

In that case, X or his attorney, put forth the intent to use that defense, and the DA felt he had a good enough case not to accept it and pursued the charges. Note that nowhere is there mention of justice. The DA's job is to prosecute; the defense attorney's job it to get the accused off. If the prosecution is successful, the accused is guilty; if not, he is innocent. The concept of "real" or "objective" guilt or innocence doesn't enter in at all.

If you don't believe me, ask a lawyer.

Jim
 
I noticed a long time ago that I am much more polite and passive when carrying. Admittedly I was kind of a dumb ass when I was in my early twentys. I was quick to anger and I put myself in many situations that ended in violence. Getting a CCW changed some things. Having a gun on me put me in a different state of mind. I could no longer risk the chance of pissing off the wrong guy or letting someone piss me off. It took away the ability to settle arguments with a fist fight. War and time have since diluted the appeal of violence in me. When I look back I am glad I at least was smart enough to grasp the responsibility of going armed.
 
The more I think about it the more I think the gunman screwed up. Walking up to a car at 430 in the morning with a loaded gun telling the guy to turn it down is the wrong thing to do. If I was in his shoes I wouldn't have done that because I would have worried about that specific outcome. It's 430 in the morning. Guy could be drunk. Could be high on coke, could be having sex in the back, etc. Etc. Call the police. If they don't handle it then confront the guy in a civilized manner the next day.

I agree that it is unfortunate that two men can't handle things in a civilized manner. But that's reality sometimes. I think you have the responsibility of keeping yourself out of situations like that.
 
Where I live we have drugs and thieves,its a big business here! I have forted 3 burlaries at my place. The last time I got to see the vehicle drive away, now on a dark road just seconds after you hear glass break, sounds of running, and a white construction van leaving then speeding to a nieghbors house and shucting all the lights off! Oh did I mention it is the local Pd's son! Called the state police post, no one came to check the scene! Or even take a report! Thats law here!
 
(Oh did I mention it is the local Pd's son!)
Don't shoot that one! I don't think you would ever get to see a judge. You would prolly hang yourself in your cell.
 
A court never looks at the end of such a situation, but at the beginning. From that point, here's what it looks like:

One person came out of his house, armed, with the intent of "stopping" someone from doing something that may have been illegal, but does not constitute even a felony. There is no claim of self-defense against mere noise. The noise was no doubt annoying, but it was not a lethal threat or a threat of bodily harm to anyone. The gun was taken "in case" the person in the car refused to obey the orders of a person who had no authority to give those orders.

The self-defense claim will probably not hold up. No matter what he claims happened in those last few seconds, the shooter put himself into a situation he had no business in, issued orders he had no right to issue, used his gun to try to enforce his orders, then fired when the other person responded to his threats. The whole violent initiative in the businss came from the shooter; the victim was at fault only for making a loud noise, not a capital crime.

Jim
 
Jim K, that does sound like the way the prosecutor will present it to the jury.

The defense lawyer on the hand will say the story went something like this:

The accused, a peaceful person licensed to carry a concealed handgun, one he carries with him everywhere that's lawful, awakened by the sound of very loud music coming from a neighbor's car at 4:40 am, went over to ask if he wouldn't mind turning it down.

The accused rapped on the car's window in order to get the deceased's attention. The deceased, a large, muscled body builder who "loved to work out", having recognized the accused rapping on his car window as the little worm who reported him to the police for this same activity a week ago, decided to exit the car and furnish the accused with a wuppin'.

The accused, seeing a much larger, body builder, well muscled, crazed attacker about to hit his off switch, resorted to shooting the deceased out of fear for his life.

Both versions are credible given the story as reported so far. In principle though, I agree it doesn't look good for the shooter.
 
Tom Givens' "Lessons From the Street" DVD had a very pertinent story of one of his former students who shot two men in self-defense.

The man was alone in a convenience store parking lot and felt that a group of men present were possibly getting ready to do him harm. He spoke to them, telling them basically to go away. That ticked them off and they then did approach him. He fled and they took chase. He ran some distance away, being actively pursued by six or more men. He turned and fired, hitting two of them.

He was arrested and charged, and ended up sweating out a long court process which ended in, IIRC, probation, and he was quite lucky to get that.

What is pertinent about this to the story in this thread? The "victim" spoke to these men, giving them an instruction or command, which he had a legal right to do (though no authority to enforce), but that was seen as instigation of the events which followed. He had no legal right to fire on those men when he first made contact, yet his actions lead to him shooting two of them. He therefore shared culpability for their deaths.

So remember, if you approach someone in a way that is at all likely to instigate a negative response, you very well may be seen to share the blame for whatever shakes out. Approach someone to tell them to turn down their stereo, or not to loiter, or curb their dog, or to keep down their speed in your neighborhood -- or pretty much anything that might be confrontational, and you are absolutely putting your life, freedom, and fortune on the line.

Just because you are "right" doesn't mean your life won't be ruined...or ended.
 
Last edited:
I wasn't there so I can't actually offer my opinion but if people that have a concelled carry permit think that they are lincenced to take the law into their own hands, this is what will happen. I have read so many comments on this site where members seem to think that the permit to carry a deadly weapon comes with a leo badge of some sort or entitles ordinary people to take law in to their own hands and do things they wouldn't normally do without the permit and gun, that its no wonder the anti's are in full force.
Click to expand...

We must be reading different boards, or I would wager your opinion of CCW holders is skewed to lead you to believe this i the first place. Its been my experience in reading this forum for a few years that most concealed carriers are far more likely to avoid trouble than otherwise.

In this case, it bring to mind the old cop training adage that EVERY incident you are involved in involves a weapon, YOURS. Making the decision to go confront someone when you are armed is a decision that can not be made lightly. I'm not saying he shouldn't have asked the man to turn his radio down but you have to consider that if it makes the guy mad he starts a fight, you do have a weapon on you and the situation just got real very quickly over something that wasn't life and death to start with.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

N
  • Locked
Shooter charged with first degree murder, videos seem to show self defense
2 3 4
Replies
98
Views
4K
Art Eatman
A
A
  • Locked
Interesting self-defense case near me
Replies
2
Views
495
El Tejon
E
J
  • Locked
CCW Holder Charged with Murder
2 3 4 5 6
Replies
137
Views
6K
Art Eatman
A
tuj
  • Locked
my wife was on a self-defense case jury
2
Replies
31
Views
3K
Sheepdog1968
S
T
  • Locked
Murder charges expected in double shooting
Replies
1
Views
409
Tall Man
T
Back
Top