Shooter charged with first degree murder, videos seem to show self defense

[rm23]

You can't just assume he feared for his life based on what YOU see in the video. Who knows what else happened might have happened during the chase? He could have been trying to run him off the road or run up to his car when traffic slowed. Add all of these things up, and you've got one person scared as hell just trying to get away, to a police department, no less.

 

[philip964]

Most people don't commit first degree by driving to a police station first. On the other hand you can just run inside once you are there. Sounds like manslaughter to me, not murder one.

 

[Oyeboten]

Well...possibly too, the DA does not wish to appear to tacitly condone fatal eventuations being justified under Law, for those people who are cheating or wish to cheat on their own or someone else's spouce or fiancee...

I imagine the charges will be reduced or dropped once the investigation has been able to progress.


Too, I am always disgusted at how over-kill the Police are in dealing with an unarmed person who is trying to turn themselves in or surrender.

This has zero class, and zero taste and zero quality for encouraging a community to have any good regard for them at all.

All they needed to do was have him consent to a fast search, sit him down, and let him tell his tale...instead, five or six people pile dive and twist his limbs and cuff him and over do the 'dominance' schtick.


Sad...pathetic...zero personal presence of mind or moral courage...disgusting.

No Balls or quality of deportment at all...

 

[JohnKSa]

What happened to the poor girl who got into the while car, just wanting to leave.?

She missed her chance to leave and ended up downrange from a shooting as a result.

I don't know what she was messing around with in the car all that time, but I see lots of women doing this sort of thing in the parking lot and it's a horrible idea. Nothing good is going to come from sitting in a parked car in a parking lot.

Obviously this was sort of an extreme example and isn't something that's likely to happen, but the fact remains that sitting in the car for longer than is necessary just gives predators time to maneuver and approach. Get in and drive away. When you park, get out and walk to the building.

Back to the main topic: I don't know what the laws about retreat in public are in AR, but if he has a duty to retreat then I would say that he failed to carry it out.

 

[martialartsblackbelt]

[HTML][I]Too, I am always disgusted at how over-kill the Police are in dealing with an unarmed person who is trying to turn themselves in or surrender.

This has zero class, and zero taste and zero quality for encouraging a community to have any good regard for them at all.

All they needed to do was have him consent to a fast search, sit him down, and let him tell his tale...instead, five or six people pile dive and twist his limbs and cuff him and over do the 'dominance' schtick.


Sad...pathetic...zero personal presence of mind or moral courage...disgusting.

No Balls or quality of deportment at all... [/I]

[/HTML]

Plus 1

 

[sonier]

+1 on that martial, manslaughter at the most guys and personally i believe it was pure self defense eh ran to the station and he had no time to react, he called dispatcher thought hed be safe got there to realize the police ****ed him over, and then resulted to plan b self defense, if i knocked boots with few of my friends i would fear my life.

 

[forestdavegump]

Thought the whole thing could have been avoided...better judged by 12 than carried by 6. Plenty of single gals out there?

 

[Low Budget Shooter]

Dear THR,

This is not murder, certainly not first degree. It should not be treated as a crime at all.

If an irate man chases you by car, then charges you in a confined space, shooting him is self defense, not murder, and is justifiable.

Also, the shooter pulled up in front of the police station, a clear signal that his intent was not to murder. The fact that the attacker was undeterred by the fact he was in front of the police station shows he had to be dealt with by force.

What if the shooter had stayed in the car, with it locked? When the police came out, they would have seen no evidence of any crime, except illegal parking. The aggressor would have driven away, and likely would have accosted the shooter later.

LBS

 

[Zoogster]

He also had to get out of the car to go inside the police department.
Obviously they didn't feel the need to come out and meet him on arrival even though he called them while being chased.

Almost as soon as he has parked the guy following him got out and ran to him.
Choosing to sit in your car after being chased all over town by someone intent on doing harm to you is generally a poor tactic.
Someone sitting in the driver's seat of a parked car makes a very vulnerable target.
He has no idea if the attacker is armed, and if he is then someone sitting in a cramped position in a parked car makes one of the easiest targets.



To receive police protection like he was attempting he would have had to enter the police department.
That requires getting out of his car.
(However from the footage of how long it took for a response when he was trying to turn himself in, even if he had ran inside the building any attacker could have still attacked inside the police department lobby. It took the police a long time to even respond and get people in the lobby, and someone being chased and followed into the station could be executed long before police responded to the situation in the lobby.)

 

[ccsniper]

From what I have seen, it was purely self defense. If the shooter did indeed call the police, did indeed drive to the police station and then trying to get to police protection had to use deadly force on an irate husband, he clearly did not plan out the shooting beforehand. I think if I was a juror I would have to acquit cause I can not say with 100% assurance that it was murder or even manslaughter.

 

[ccsniper]

watching the video several times you can tell the pistol is pointing at the husband as soon as the husband clears the door. You can see the first hit (cause of the way he twists to one side) as he passes the end of the Durango (00:48 seconds in) his right side lunges backwards. You can see at that same time the husband is reaching out with his left hand and is only a short distance from the gun. After the first shot, you see the husbands left hand reach for the right shoulder, that is where I think I am seeing a second shot. I think 3 shots were fired in all, but that is only from watching the video and it is kinda grainy.

 

[ccsniper]

Too, I am always disgusted at how over-kill the Police are in dealing with an unarmed person who is trying to turn themselves in or surrender.

This has zero class, and zero taste and zero quality for encouraging a community to have any good regard for them at all.

All they needed to do was have him consent to a fast search, sit him down, and let him tell his tale...instead, five or six people pile dive and twist his limbs and cuff him and over do the 'dominance' schtick.


Sad...pathetic...zero personal presence of mind or moral courage...disgusting.

On this, I am gonna give the cops some leniency. They don't know if it is the husband who just shot the lover or vis versa. It could be the Irate husband for all they know, and they most certainly know he is armed.

 

[Seattleimport]

All they needed to do was have him consent to a fast search, sit him down, and let him tell his tale...instead, five or six people pile dive and twist his limbs and cuff him and over do the 'dominance' schtick.

As an informed observer, it did seem like overkill. But look at it from the perspective of the cops. They heard shots fired right outside their building. There's a corpse on the street. A screaming woman outside. The shooter is inside their building, agitated, walking around, waving his hands in the air.

He could have a bomb. Or a concealed weapon.

Proper response is to take him down and get him under control, using overwhelming force.

The time to calmly ask questions and methodically investigate the cause of the disturbance is *after* the scene has been secured. I mean, c'mon: Waller walked into a police station, probably spattered with blood, and declared "I JUST KILLED A MAN!" What do you expect the cops to do? Ask the self-confessed shooter to sit down for a cup of tea?

Now, if they'd roughed him up after he was cuffed, then that'd be cause for complaint. But the takedown itself was totally justified.

 

[Oyeboten]

No Gun appeared to be brought into the Police Station, his Hands were open...his body language and everything were pretty clear.

Even if in being flustered he'd had the Gun in his Belt, they could have dealt with it politely and effeciently without the over-do swarming pile-ons and being being so forceful.

Just say "Okay, well, let's do this first, then we can sit down and take your report..."

Just have him spread eagle at a wall, search him, go from there.

I do not like seeing the swarm and over dominate method as a substitute for manhood and manners and self respect.

Looks bad...is bad...


The shooter is still part of that 'Public' they are sworn to serve and protect.

 

[Oyeboten]

The time to calmly ask questions and methodically investigate the cause of the disturbance is *after* the scene has been secured. I mean, c'mon: Waller walked into a police station, probably spattered with blood, and declared "I JUST KILLED A MAN!" What do you expect the cops to do? Ask the self-confessed shooter to sit down for a cup of tea?

That is pretty close to how they used to behave not so long ago, yes, as if they were men with self posession and common sense.

They never treated John Dillinger as bad as they did that guy even when arresting him...same with endless others who were actually criminals and predictably armed.

This is not how things used to be....it is not healthy.

 

[Seattleimport]

Regarding the incident itself: seemed like self-defense. On this forum I've heard the following advice many times:

1. "Don't draw unless you intend to shoot."
2. "Once you've drawn, shoot, and keep shooting until the threat is eliminated."

According to the above, Waller did good. I even recall a few "what if" threads about "what if a road rager pursues you", and most of them elicited comments of "drive to a police station".

Of course, he could have done better. He could have phoned ahead. He could have stayed in his car.

But on the whole? I wouldn't be surprised if he was a member of THR. He certainly behaved as if he was a regular reader of Strategies and Tactics.

EDIT: for example, this post: http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6629277&postcount=19

 

[Seattleimport]

I do not like seeing the swarm and over dominate method as a substitute for manhood and manners and self respect.

I hear you, but respectfully disagree. The takedown was a way to quickly and efficiently secure a demonstrably dangerous person. Keep in mind that Waller shot and killed a human being 60 seconds prior to the takedown.

Regardless of how either of us would like things to be done, the cops responded in accordance with their training and procedures.

EDIT: check the video at http://thecabin.net/news/local/2010-07-20/cpd-shooting-video-long-version . The two cops that take off after Waller know two things. 1) A man has been shot and is lying dead on the street. 2) the shooter ran into their police station.

That takedown was absolutely justified.

 

[Low Budget Shooter]

Dear Seattle,

Very poignant points.

LBS

 

[Manco]

I can't say I know enough to judge, but it appears as though the shooter intentionally drove to a police station in an attempt to deescalate the situation and/or get some help from police officers. The deceased appears to have been chasing the shooter around town, looking for a confrontation and probably to beat him up (or worse). The shooter was most likely fearing for his life, especially when he got boxed in by the aggressive driving of the deceased, and then by getting charged. I know that if I were armed and were being attacked in this manner, the last thing I would allow to happen is being disarmed and shot by my own gun. The main question here, based only on what we can see in these videos, is whether the use of lethal force was justified, and under these specific circumstances, it may well have been. Arguably less lethal means could have been used first, but the attack unfolded very quickly once they left their vehicles. At the very least, it seems that the shooting was done in self-defense, so the first-degree murder charge looks ridiculous unless there are some very important facts we're missing. The fact that the shooter immediately (I presume) turned himself in could also be a mitigating factor, although it is possible that the prosecutor will suggest that he had the whole thing planned in advance with the intent to murder. I think that would be hard to prove in general, though, and especially with such an aggressive victim (unless they have some hard evidence indicating the intent to murder).

 

[Tim Burke]

but if he has a duty to retreat then I would say that he failed to carry it out.

He retreated all the way to the parking lot of the police station, and was attempting to retreat into the police station when the decedent cut him off.

 

[Enachos]

I say he acted in SD.

1) Yeah, the shooter's wrong for messing with another man's wife, but... that doesn't excuse the "attacker's" behavior.

2) He attempted to flee. Which goes to show that the shooter wasn't exactly looking for a fight. He was trying to avoid it.

3) IMO, if the shooting was premeditated, I highly doubt the shooter would have chosen the PD (of all places) to "ambush"

4) It's clear that the attacker indeed tried "attacking" him.... and like others have already posted, a beating can kill.

(But I'm no expert)

 

[Diggers]

WOW!!

It’s amazing to me how many people think they have the right to shoot an unarmed person simply because they feel threatened by them.

So about the video... If the man who was shot didn't have a weapon in his hand the shooter is going to jail, not for M1, but for some lesser murder charge. FOR SURE.

The guy ran about 10 feet toward the shooter, it didn't look like he was even preparing to hit they guy i.e. raised fist.

Also if you are sleeping with another man’s wife or girlfriend you can reasonable expect to be angrily confronted about it when caught.

You can bet the court will take that into account as well.

 

[IdahoLT1]

I'm curious about the guys saying manslaughter should be the appropriate charge:

When a guy shoots and kills another person, how can you say he shouldnt be charged with murder(because the homicide was justifiable) but should get charged with manslaughter?

 

[HappyHunting]

The fact remains that the shooter did not do what he did with the "victim's" wife to spite him. Beating the hell out of the person who screwed your wife won't save your fouled up marriage. And it might just get you killed...

 

[IdahoLT1]

I'm curious if the shooter even knew she was engaged or in a relationship. I know a girl that would have a boyfriend and a lover on the side and neglect to tell the guy about her relationship.