Clint Smith On Shotguns

[Striker]

Just finished reading an article on SD shotguns by Clint Smith in the July 08 issue of Guns Magazine.

He talks about SD guns and accessories on a budget, specifically the S/S, SxS, and Pump. Great article with practical advice.

Also found this short video by Clint with some great techniques on use of the S/S and SxS platforms. The intro is "The shotgun you have is the right one...As long as you know how to use it." Software, not hardware.

Enjoy!

http://www.gunsmagazine.com/webblastTRDS.html

 

[George Hill]

I like his his S/S technique. Clean... efficient.

 

[sm]

Striker,

I did not see the article, I have seen the DVD and recommend anything by Clint Smith.
Heck I wish I still had the DVDs...

The single shot method is clean and efficient.

 

[HiWayMan]

Smoothest use of a single shot I've seen to date. Something new to practice at the range. May have to try it on the sporting clays field.

 

[foghornl]

I liked the closing line by Mr. Smith...

"...I need to know how to run the gun I got..."

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks for that dose of reality, Striker. A couple things stand out.

That quote about the right shotgun.

And the one about "the gun I got".

We are the weakest link.Darn near any shotgun is a great defensive tool. We need to get to that level. We do so by lots of shells fired.

And the video shows good form. No exagerrated crouch. a nice lean into the shot.

No ninja duds, no ultra fashionable BDUs,either.

I live in jeans. I should TRAIN in jeans.

I hope all our members who post cool pics of new looking shotguns watch that excerpt a few times, then head for the range.......

 

[Legionnaire]

I live in jeans. I should TRAIN in jeans.

Good point. Unfortunately, I live in a suit. So the next time I retire a suit, I'll "retire" it to the gun room, so I can wear it while training. Seriously!

 

[Dave McCracken]

Good idea.

Back when I did CCW qualifications I had one student show up in BDUs and with a race 1911. The conversation that followed revealed he worked in a jacket and tie and was planning on carrying a J frame. I refused to let him shoot until he changed into "Work" clothes and used his S&W.

He qualified easily and saw my point.

 

[tinygnat219]

Striker,

Thanks for the video! That's incredible. It looks like that side saddle makes all the difference for a S/S, or a SXS shotgun.

 

[Snarlingiron]

Very nice. Strong re-enforcement for the training I have received from Bill Davison at Tac Pro Shooting Center. His constant mantra is "What is the best gun to have in a fight?...the one you have!" You need to learn to be proficient with what you have.

I saw Clint do a segment on Personal Defense TV regarding using what you can get. In a real world situation you may have to fight with what you can find. It pays to be familiar with lots of different weapons, and the techniques associated with them.

Good stuff.

 

[Navy joe]

I remember my first practical shooting match ever was a 3-gun. At the time 3 gun was pretty new and folks weren't practiced up. I was about 3rd from last in 150 people in pistol but placed in the top third with rifle and SG, things I knew how to use. We all got waxed by a fellow with a bone stock AR-15 and an old wingmaster that had no sidesaddle, no extended mag tube. Just an operator whose feet or loading hand never seemed to stop moving. Occupation, Marine FAST company platoon leader. Pays to know your tools.

 

[Defensory]

The video proves to me that high capacity semi-autos are your best bet for self-defense, and that "hardware" certainly DOES play an important part.

Semi-autos dramatically reduce the chance of human error, while the other types of shotguns do not. Semi-autos are also faster.

Watch how Smith rapidly takes down six steel targets with the semi-auto. Then watch him with the single and double---his rate of fire is noticeably slower. After firing two rounds from the double, he has a little trouble breaking the shotgun open---in fact he's downright slow.

And Smith's a highly experienced shooter who's relaxed and at the range. A novice gun owner who's under high stress and being shot at by multiple perps, isn't going to fare as well as Smith in attempting to break and reload the weapon.

Smith talks about being able to "stand in a hall" and fire away with a single shot. But in a home invasion involving multiple armed perps who are shooting at you, it would be idiocy to stand in a hallway. A homeowner who wants to survive would be behind cover.

His rocking back to eject the shells with the single and double are all fine and good when you're casually shooting at steel targets at the range. But what if you're pinned down behind a couch with your back literally against the wall, or you're in a prone position?

Hardware MOST CERTAINLY plays a very important part in armed self-defense with a shotgun. That's why I choose a high capacity semi-auto.

No, it doesn't have to cost $1500.00. No, it doesn't have to have a pistol grip, sidesaddle or tactical light (as several of Smith's shotguns had in the video).

I'll happily take a 7 or 8+1 Mossie semi-auto without any of the tacticool accessories on some of Smith's shotguns. In a situation involving multiple armed perpetrators, it beats the heck out of a single or double.

There's no pump to short-stroke when you're under high stress and your life is on the line, and unlike pumps, semis are much easier to fire one-handed. An important advantage if one of your arms gets incapacitated in a shooting situation.

 

[machinisttx]

There's no pump to short-stroke when you're under high stress and your life is on the line, and unlike pumps, semis are much easier to fire one-handed. An important advantage if one of your arms gets incapacitated in a shooting situation

If you short stroke it, you haven't spent enough time using it. My home defense shotgun gets a barrel swap when hunting season rolls around---unless I just use one of my other, identical, 870 Wingmasters.

The best reload is another gun--so there is an AK(and plenty of loaded magazines) sitting right next to that shotgun.

I've fired a few thousand rounds through my 870's. I'm pretty familiar with them... Reckon I'll leave the takticul high speed stuff to the experts.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by machinisttx:
If you short stroke it, you haven't spent enough time using it. My home defense shotgun gets a barrel swap when hunting season rolls around---unless I just use one of my other, identical, 870 Wingmasters.

^Hogwash.

I've seen a Youtube video of Jerry Miculek having a failure-to-fire with one of his custom race revolvers, because by his own admission he short-stroked the trigger.

If world champion revolver shooter Jerry Miculek can short-stroke a revolver trigger while under no pressure, then self-proclaimed pump shotgun "experts" can sure short-stroke a shotgun pump while being shot at during a life-and-death situation.

The main reason many police departments around the country have dumped their pumps in favor of semi-autos in the last few decades, is precisely because of the tendency of even experienced officers to short-stroke the pump during a critical situation. Modern semi-autos are highly reliable, and remove virtually any chance of human error, unlike any other type of shotgun.

It's a hard fact of life that millions of gunowners don't hunt, and don't practice with their weapons enough. The semi-auto is ideal for those persons, as well as for serious shooters who need the best, which is why so many SWAT teams and police departments/sheriff's offices use the semi-auto.

The best reload is another gun--so there is an AK(and plenty of loaded magazines) sitting right next to that shotgun.

That's all fine and good for YOU, but millions of people can't afford multiple firearms. We're talking defensive shotguns here, so we're presuming that a shotgun is the only weapon that we'll have access to in a SHTF situation.

I've fired a few thousand rounds through my 870's. I'm pretty familiar with them... Reckon I'll leave the takticul high speed stuff to the experts.

In the event of a home invasion involving multiple armed perpetrators, you'll wish you had practiced that "takticul high speed stuff". It could be the difference between life and death for a gun owner and their family. I take my self-defense seriously. Sorry to see you don't.

 

[JShirley]

I've had self-loading shotguns malfunction on me. Not ammo related.

Only ammo-related malfs in the pumps I've had.

 

[El Tejon]

The video proves to me that high capacity semi-autos are your best bet for self-defense, and that "hardware" certainly DOES play an important part.

Semi-autos dramatically reduce the chance of human error, while the other types of shotguns do not. Semi-autos are also faster.

Maybe, maybe not. Did you watch the DVD? It always depends. Remember the part where Smith cannot get the ubertactical Benelli shotgun to function when he is down on the ground as there was not enough resistance from his "hummingbird" (Smith's own words to describe his thin/lanky build) frame?

Smith talks about being able to "stand in a hall" and fire away with a single shot. But in a home invasion involving multiple armed perps who are shooting at you, it would be idiocy to stand in a hallway. A homeowner who wants to survive would be behind cover.

The hallway scenario is a standard frame of reference for Smith's lectures and does not anticipate an exposed position. In my many classes at Thunder Ranch I have not heard Smith say that one should stand full value numbnuts in the open and has yelled at yours truly for not using cover effectively in the shoot houses, etc.

His rocking back to eject the shells with the single and double are all fine and good when you're casually shooting at steel targets at the range. But what if you're pinned down behind a couch with your back literally against the wall, or you're in a prone position?

Come to class, he'll show you.

Hardware MOST CERTAINLY plays a very important part in armed self-defense with a shotgun.

Maybe, but not everyone has a self-loading shotgun or can guarantee that they will fight with one. For those reasons, it's always good to learn to use multiple weapons.

Smith emphasizes reloading the shotgun during his shotgun classes. Even your HSLD Mossie will run out of ammo. Smith emphasizes reloading it.

Smith teaches his students to run what they brung and has a broad experience with all types of shotguns. Indeed, I have seen all sorts of shotguns at the classes at Thunder Ranch, self-loading, slide-actions, doubles and singles.

The problem is, Def, as I'm sure you've seen too, is that people buy a weapon and think they are done, when, if fact, they have only started.

 

[Rupestris]

Man, I'm glad I grew up in Detroit and not in Defensory's neighborhood .

Never had to worry about multiple armed perps entering a house. If they wanted you, they'd just set the house on fire and wait for you to come out.

 

[El Tejon]

If they wanted you, they'd just set the house on fire and wait for you to come out.

Now that's a Dee-troit Reverse B&E!!!

 

[Gary A]

If they wanted you, they'd just set the house on fire and wait for you to come out.

Hmm, maybe that's more reason to have an extended magazine semi-auto so you can go out like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

 

[ArmedBear]

Semi-autos dramatically reduce the chance of human error, while the other types of shotguns do not.

I wouldn't say that.

I've never been attacked and had to use a shotgun to fend off the attacker. I assume that this would cause a fair amount of stress.

When I have used a semiauto under conditions that weren't controlled and relaxed, it's been hunting. Quail hunting in the high desert can be long, tedious and fatiguing, punctuated by an adrenaline rush, so it's an indication of what happens under stress.

I've loaded a shell backwards in an 1100 when quail hunting. That's easy enough to do when your eyes are looking out, not at the gun -- same as in a defensive scenario. The backwards shell went right in without resistance, but it does NOT come right back out. The gun was nothing but a 4-foot steel-and-walnut club.

This doesn't happen ever with a break-action gun, and I think it's easier to clear in a pump.

Something to consider before making blanket assumptions.

 

[sm]

Private messages asked me to post some more of my take in this thread for some reason.
Why?
I don't know.
I am just a dumb southern boy that has never attended a known gun / training facility for defensive shotgun use.
"Nor have I for any firearm use, edged weapon, or martial art.
Private lessons is all I have.

I have slapped trigger on a shotgun a few times, and started slapping at age 5.

-Anything can and will break.
Mr. Murphy will show up at the worst time as well.

-Mechanical things are designed as they are for a reason.
They are designed to mesh with other parts within themselves, and to mesh with any components used with them, and how maintained.
Mechanical things are designed to function , and be used with components with certain specifications.

If something is altered, something is affected. That something affected , affects something else.
Domino Theory.

Reliability is based on mechanical things being manufactured with quality components, and being kept and maintained to specifications.

Shotguns are designed to use certain ammunition.
Chambers are marked and the mfg will state what a shotgun is designed to work with best.

-Everything mechanical has pro's and con's.

--
...I need to know how to run the gun I got... - Mr. Clint Smith.

Wise words.



I do not want a magazine extension, or a side saddle mounted to the side of a receiver.

Anything altered can and will alter the mechanical aspects of a design.
Such as the mag extension not feeding a round, or if a side saddle is too tight, not allowing a action to cycle.

Oh it might do this just fine, until a serious situation comes up, and that is when Mr. Murphy will show up as well.

Butt Cuffs have a place.
While they will not affect the mechanical design of the gun, They WILL affect the physical characteritics of the gun.
Not just the balance of the gun...

Weak side shooting will cut a face, as they do not allow a proper "mounting gun to face" hold.
This affects the correct basic fundamentals of shooting...
Which affects one getting on target.

Domino Theory.

-There is No Best Shotgun, No Holy Grail, No Absolutes.

One should never buy a shotgun ( or anything) and think that just because they have a certain make, model , action type they are "Set".

Examples.

In my opinion, the finest semi auto shotgun is the Win Super X Model 1
I have a 1974 model I have personally put around 300,000 rds through.

Machined Steel, crafted, and Bob Brister even wrote in his work - Shotgunning: The Art & Science

The Win SX1 was the most reliable shotgun he tested in all sorts of environments, including blowing sand.

This gun was made to shoot a 2 3/4" shell as that is what it is chambered for, that is 2 3/4 dr min with 1 1/8" oz of payload.

This is the min spec, as that was the Skeet loading used at the time.
Nobody "really" shot a 7/8 oz load from a 12 ga, and very few were shooting 1oz loads back in '74.
I know, I was there.

This SX1 had fixed choked barrels, from Sk, IC, M, F, and Slug.
We shot "Two Gun" back in the day, before 3 gun came to be, with these guns and used the Slug barrel.
We shot slugs a lot...


The Remington 1100 came out, and was a "stamped" shotgun that ran.
It had the same specs in regard to ammo loading as the SX1, and other guns of the time, like the Beretta 303.


Pay attention here.

These two guns run, with ammo they were designed for.
In our defensive lessons, they had less felt recoil.
They would allow one to run the gun one handed, such as when we would have a "baby" or "child" in one hand and have to fire as we executed a stage.

One day someone said "The SX1 and 1100 is the Perfect Gun!"

I snatched the bolt handle out of a SX1 and a Mentor snatched the Bolt Handle out of a 1100 from the two folks that had announced this "perfect gun".

"Whatcha gonna do?"

One second these two boys were standing 3 feet off the ground, with puffed out chests, and the next deflated like a burst balloon.

"We....we don't know?" they said.

I grabbed a pocket knife and racked back the bolt.
Mentor did the same thing with the gun he had.

These two boys freaked at using "good" Case pocket knives and doing that.

Mentor, myself and others were running guns with the Plugs in them, thus limiting us to 3 shells total.
Reality is, one is to avoid trouble, know how to run the gun, keep it running, and it don't matter how many shells one has , in a serious situation one cannot keep up with how many shells they have or what kind.

We were often out and about in Migratory areas where a gun had to be plugged.
We just run what we brung, so did Skeet and Trap Shooters.
WE were mentored to NOT rely on shotguns, ammo, how many rounds, or what kind to keep us safe.
First off - avoid trouble.
Second, leave if trouble showed up, and Third, if we had to deal with trouble, it was the skill sets WE had, not the darn shotgun ( any firearm or tool) we employed "running what we brung".

Pros and Con's: Win 1400 will never have a bolt handle "pull out", it is the softest shooting semi auto, and it is limited by design to 3 shells total.


Clint Smith I have never met.
Nor have I met Awerbuck, or Randy Cain.

I do agree with them, and I am dumb as a brick.

My experiences and my observations include:
Win Model 12, 1300, Ithaca 37, Remington 870 being run faster than the Semi Autos.

Single shot and two barrel shotguns like 311, Win 101, 23, Citoris, Berettas...
Getting two shots fired faster ( with the single shot) and 4 shots faster ( single shot and two barrel guns) than repeating guns.

Krieghoff breaking a sear, and this a NIB, Benelli's breaking, and other top notch guns, going down.

I've seen a JC Higgens, pawn shop special, refuse to quit.
$50 gun, and being run hard, put up wet, just to see how long it would go being mistreated.


I know the 1100 20 ga with a fixed Sk choked barrel, 26" long, with the plug in will stop a threat.
More than once, as I knew these folks.
Just Skeet guns, used for skeet and bird hunting.
One lady used slugs, the best she had shot was about 75/100 another lady #3 buck that ran high 80's /100.

I know what a 311 will do during Riots, as will a Win 101.
None of the firebombs made it to a porch or roof...
This in low light/no light.

I know what a youth 20 ga single shot with slugs will do against a car of criminals, at night, with intent to loot, rob, and perhaps rape, shooting guns as they come onto property.

I was very young, and I was in the best position, and Mentors gave me that look, one they wished like hell they did not have to , and stopped that threat.
I cannot explain it, just in the short time it took for them to get in a better position, or to me (both)
The threat was stopped.
The vehicles back then were big and heavy...


If I ever meet / attend where Clint Smith, or Awerbuck is ...

I will be there with pencil and paper and "Sir, I don't know squat, but I want to know, teach me, please".

I have communicated this same attitude to Clint Smith, Will Fennell, Awerbuck, Givens, Ayoob, El Tejon, Dave McCracken, Zak Smith, Lee Lapin, PJR, TrapperReady and countless others.

I'll have to borrow a shotgun, and a real pair of shooting glasses, and other equip.

Life is Life, and fire, flood, tornadoes and theft have taken from me.
I have two shotguns.
I keep a single shot youth 20 ga handy.

Tornadoes almost got my SX1 I had "retired" and put in safe keeping.
It survived.
I lost all the other firearms in that location.

I gotta single shot youth 20 ga, and I am fine with this.
Just a Koplin butt cuff.
I only use slugs.
I am not smart enough to keep up with what type of ammo is what.
So I just use 2 3/4" slugs.

Just a dumb southern boy that don't know better...

"...I need to know how to run the gun I got..."

 

[ArmedBear]

Small addendum...

I have a spare bolt handle for my 1100. I found it one day, lying in the dirt. They DO fall out.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

that ol' boy would ruin a perp's day for sure. after looking the video 3X I'm almost certain the SXS he uses is a Stoeger (I have the Coach 12ga Mag.) which doesn't have sprung shell ejectors. I took mine down and polished the surfaces until it opens really slick for faster reloads. for some reason it's the only gun I own that I feel invincible carrying - I've practiced with it much. that and a Makarov stuck in strong-side pocket - a fella is armed very well for around the home-defense.

 

[machinisttx]

^Hogwash.

I've seen a Youtube video of Jerry Miculek having a failure-to-fire with one of his custom race revolvers, because by his own admission he short-stroked the trigger.

If world champion revolver shooter Jerry Miculek can short-stroke a revolver trigger while under no pressure, then self-proclaimed pump shotgun "experts" can sure short-stroke a shotgun pump while being shot at during a life-and-death situation.

The main reason many police departments around the country have dumped their pumps in favor of semi-autos in the last few decades, is precisely because of the tendency of even experienced officers to short-stroke the pump during a critical situation. Modern semi-autos are highly reliable, and remove virtually any chance of human error, unlike any other type of shotgun.

It's a hard fact of life that millions of gunowners don't hunt, and don't practice with their weapons enough. The semi-auto is ideal for those persons, as well as for serious shooters who need the best, which is why so many SWAT teams and police departments/sheriff's offices use the semi-auto.

Jerry uses a revolver with an extremely light action. It's significantly easier to short stroke a revolver with a light rebound spring than one with a factory weight rebound spring. How do I know? I shoot revolvers almost exclusively, and three of mine have light actions. Not race gun light, but significantly lighter than stock. Oddly enough, I don't have problems with short stroking the stock actions, but have short stroked the light ones. Darn, maybe what the factory made is better? Or could it be that shooting guns with stock actions for 20 odd years has me accustomed to them and not the lighter modified ones?

That's all fine and good for YOU, but millions of people can't afford multiple firearms. We're talking defensive shotguns here, so we're presuming that a shotgun is the only weapon that we'll have access to in a SHTF situation.

O rly? But they can afford two $400+ a month vehicle payments, a $90 land line phone bill and a $100+ cell phone bill--along with designer clothing, brand new appliances, and furniture? Ridiculous.

In the event of a home invasion involving multiple armed perpetrators, you'll wish you had practiced that "takticul high speed stuff". It could be the difference between life and death for a gun owner and their family. I take my self-defense seriously. Sorry to see you don't.

The statistical likelihood of me being engaged in the taktikul gun forum guys wet dream SHTF situation is next to nonexistent. I practice enough to do what needs doing, and nothing else. You can continue to practice being Delta Force or space shuttle door gunner, I have other things to do.

 

[RobertFBurnett]

"The gun you got"

I saw a clip on guntalktv.com with Mr. Smith discussing Autopistol vs. revolver for SD...somewhere along the way he said something very similar: "If I have a revolver I'll defend myself with a revolver, If I have an Auto I'll defend myself with an Auto, it's about getting comfortable defending yourself with what you got."

Or something like that, I've liked His work ever since,

My $0.02

RFB