Clint Smith On Shotguns

[Old Guy]

Good planning, using what she had, and simple weapons (with training!) saved the day.

I am firmly convinced half the world is mental!

 

[SN13]

I've used Rem 870s in the past. I own a Saiga-12 w/3x10rd mags and 1 5rd mag and a cheap O/U for trap.


I would feel confident with any of the three for defending my home.

The 19" mag fed saiga is more compact, lighter and recoils less than the other two, the 870 was a hoot to shoot, and my 30" barreled O/U is accurate and reliable but I'd hate to turn in some of my halls with it.


If I had to pick ONE? I'd deffinitely pick my Saiga. I can have 35rds ready to go.

How long of a Tube do you need to have 10rds? 24"? I can have 10rds in an 8" gun if i wanted too. Mag fed SA shotguns really shine with shorter barrels.

 

[RancidSumo]

My HD shotgun is an old Ithica M37 and I am far more confident in it working then I am in some new super fancy semi auto. Thats not to say that I don't want a semi auto because I do but the Ithica would still be my go to shotgun. I have fired hundreds of rounds through it, my dad has fired thousands before he gave it to me, and my grandpa fired thousands before he gave it to my dad. I don't know about my grandpa but neither I nor my dad have ever had a malfunction with it and with the plug pulled, it hold plenty of rounds and I can get them all off pretty damn quick.

Back to the video, I thought that all SxS had auto ejectors. My AYA throws the shells several feet behind me and only ejects the spent ones so I can open it beack up and reload a single shot if I need to.

 

[sm]

I am firmly convinced half the world is mental!

And the other half is about half crazy. *wink*


Seriously, this is how I was raised, and mentored.
I was born in 1955.
There were no known gun schools back in the day.
LEOs and Military folks had training schools if you will.

Civilians did not have "official" schools
Firearms, were not complicated, even for Cops.

City cops were issued S&W Model 10s and Win Model 12, or Ithaca 37 with full wood stocks, short bbls, and 00 buck.

State Boys had Model 19s, same shotguns.
Sheriff had both Model 10 or 19s, same shotguns.

Heck the loading was 38spl, for all except for a few of the Sheriff and State Boys, that worked remote areas.

Civilians were mentored by others with whatever gun they had.
Hardware Store Guns if you will for many.

Not everyone could afford a S&W or a Colt like some Dept in areas were issued.

H&R, Iver Johnson and Hi Standard handguns from .22 rim-fire, 32 cal and .38spl.
Were common, as cops and judges suggested folks carry - no "gun permit" back in the day.

The home gun?
Most homes had a single shot shotgun with the youth size 20 ga being real popular.
Anyone in the home could use it, from smaller person to adult.
I mean a kid , teenager, grandma, anyone might have to step out back and take care of a threat, like a rabid raccoon or dawg.

So we did lessons, with the guns folks had.
WE went to homes, boarding houses, duplexes and wherever else folks lived and checked it out.

Made sketches and worked on better locks ( not a lot to choose from back then) better lighting and whatever we could to deter, and prevent.

Neighbors knew each other, so practiced plans on keeping tabs and using code word and all.

Set ups, were what one would stages today.

It might outdoors, or one of the indoor places we had, ( shoot house today), still Widow Jones' little house was replicated with layout, boxes, and odd furniture and practiced plans for her.

Take the War Veteran that lost a leg and used a wheelchair, and got down sick and spent time bedridden from surgery.
Well he and his wife had practiced plans, including shooting from reclined bed, wheel chair and all.

One of the handiest tools for staying safe was a - door stop.

WE did not have dead bolts back then, but a door stop would keep a door from coming open.

The guns were just part of the tool box, and it made no darn difference what kind of gun.
Just folks learned the guns they had, and were good with them.

ADEE was what we were doing back in the day.

Widow Jones for instance.
Her neighbors and family knew she lived alone. They kept mouths shut, and everyone kept tabs on one another.

She still hung out his britches and work shirt on the line.
If you walked into the house, his pipe, tobacco and other items were still out.
It looked the old boy was at work at the plant , or had run off to town, but that women was not living alone.

She set out two plates or 3, or 4 so around supper time, it looked like she was waiting for her husband and company to show up.

Traveling salesman, for instance, never knew she lived alone.
She had her pistol on her all the time, and .410 single shot and .22 rifle handy.
She liked these, could handle these, so she did all her "set ups" with these.

"Oh I need for you to come back later, I have to attend to something now" she would tell a door to door salesman.

I have pretended to be her grandson, or another lady her daughter, or one of the guys her husband, son or brother.
Just how we did things.

There were "codes", like wash on a line.
Take the chain gangs working the area, and if she was out at the clothes line, and trouble showed up, and pulled that certain "towel" off the line, it meant trouble.

Just a old towel for cleaning, still if neighbor looked out, and that towel was gone, the Sheriff was called and other neighbors too.

No 911 back then, no cell phones , so practiced plans to check on Widow Jones.

So lessons, and "set ups" on going to check on Widow Jones, in morning, noon , night or wee hours.

Who knew how fast a Sheriff Deputy might show up, he might be off on the far end of the county area he patrolled.
It was up to us, to stay safe.

It made no difference on make, model , brand name, caliber, gauge, ammo type, folks just knew their guns.

Widow Jones ( not her real name) was sweet gal.
She had 4 boys get loose from a chain gang one day.
She called her neighbor to call Sheriff.

All 4 boys sitting next to house by the water hose, all lined up.
She let them have water, while they sat for the Sheriff and Correction folks.
Just a old widow with a .410 single shot, and her pistol in apron with more .410 slugs.

She never said she had a pistol, just that sweet gal had this look when she meant business and she meant it when said "sit down", with that single shot .410 in hand.
Just low ready, muzzle safe, but they knew that gal knew how to use the 4 youths said by the way she handled that gun and herself.

Once the boys were all secured, she invited Sheriff and Correction folks back for cookies.

Dang her, she was something else.
Deer got her flowers and she shot that sucker with a .410, called a neighbor to come fetch it and butcher it.
"I'll cook some up, just I gotta finish my house cleaning and laundry first".

Shotguns are just one tool in the tool box, just like any firearm is.

The Great Equipment Race all of a sudden decided to change what has always worked.

 

[Blakenzy]

What's all the fuss with single shots and sxs? I find it really hard to believe that someone who buys Clint Smith training cannot afford a good pump shotgun. In fact, I think that it's alot harder to find a good 18inch single shot with a butcuff than a good 18in pump action.

 

[sm]

We have an aging society, not everyone can effectively handle a repeating shotgun.

Some undergo hip, knee, shoulder, surgeries, even hernia operations and the like make it difficult to hold a heavier gun, such as holding one while dialing a phone.

Arthritis affects ROM ( range of motion), as does back problems and other factors.

--

Some we do things with are college kids, away from home.
So a single shot for instance is a handy , affordable tool , they can use for not only home use, or going out to shoot clays, or small game hunt, also while traveling to and from home and college.

Just a single shot shotgun, not menacing or threatening, not expensive.
Still if 20 year old daughter has a flat tire, that gun in the trunk is handy and easy to load or unload.
If she gets caught out, and has to stay at a hotel, in a garment bag she can tote that single shot in to her hotel room.

With a group of trusted , like kind gals, taking a trip, again the single shots are easy to tote and have in traveling, and staying in a hotel or cabin some family has and the gals are given permission to use.

Pretty much "politically correct" and "jurisdiction" friendly.

Awerbuck travels with a two barrel shotgun for the same reasons.

Actually quite a few trainers and instructors do, I have learned over the years.


I would not want to tangle with 4 gals, with single shot shotguns in a family cabin, all under legal age to conceal carry.

All 4 have the H&R Youth 20 ga single shot, with fixed modified choke.
I have the same gun handy.

Just 4 of the gals I have assisted with, over the years.
Parents wanted input, I was hollered at, and I assisted these gals.

Parents chipped in and got a single stage MEC Reloader, so the gals could reload target loads, for practice.
They learned to shoot skeet, with repeating guns, and other defensive lessons with repeating guns, like Beretta 303, 390, Rem 1100 , 870 and 1300.

Still, they became one with a single shot, had a lot of fun, and the parents, themselves , nor I ever worried about them.
They shot clays, went dove hunting, rabbit and squirrel hunting with these, and had a good time.
They really liked dove hunting, and did really really well!


Some underage do have nice guns , and shotguns at home, just away at college, these single shots work out real well.

Great gifts for a HS grad, or someone heading off to college, these single shots are.
Even for someone old enough for CCW and takes a handgun with them.

 

[buzz_knox]

I find it really hard to believe that someone who buys Clint Smith training cannot afford a good pump shotgun.

Not everyone who can afford one wants one. A double barrel is a universal gun: pretty much anywhere in the US that a firearm is allowed, a double barrel will be legal. The same can't be said for some autoloaders or even pumps witha reasonable capacity. If that's the case, or if you carry a double barrel as a car gun for that reason (as at least one shotgun guru does), then training with it makes sense.

 

[sm]

Gun Control

One of the qualities I like about a quality instructors such as Clint Smith, Awerbuck, Givens and others is, they are just as comfortable with a student showing up with Single Shot, Two barrel shotgun, lever action or revolver.

[Set aside particular classes if you will]

They want a student to be one with the gun, no matter what make, model , platform, caliber or gauge.

Re: Gun Control & Single Shot, Two Barrel guns.

I was born in '55 and in the 3 rd grade when JFK was shot in Dallas.
Now my Mentors included those that had been abroad and were familiar with gun restrictions in other countries.

i.e. Citizens could NOT have the same guns nor calibers/ gauges as the Police or Military.

So concerns had always been "if the USA ever imposes such restrictions, what to prepare for".

In '55 that would mean no .38spl, 9mm, 45ACP, 12 ga, ...right off the bat.
The Cops and Military used these calibers and gauges.
Citizens are going to have to find others to use...if restrictions were imposed.

JFK was shot in '63, and concerns got more serious.
Gun Control Act of '68, really heated up concerns.

What if the restrictions include Repeating Shotguns?

Remember, we did not have 911, or Migratory Waterfowl Regs to use non-toxic shot.
We had Model 12, Ithaca 37, 870, J.C Higgins,... and none of this extended mag, side saddle stuff.

These were working guns! Duck and deer hunting, small game, bird hunting and general purpose guns.
Some guns were bought on Lay-a-way, some used the Winchester Buyers Program.

Folks did not go out and just a shotgun, any gun. They had a few of what they needed and that was it!
One shotgun did everything from clay target, putting meat on the table and defending the home.

Now with GCA '68, and the questions of restrictions, and interpretations of restrictions, repeating guns, shotguns, lever action and even semi-auto and revolvers were in question.

Single shot shotguns, Double barrel shotguns, and single shot rifles in .22 and other caliber were bought.

Oh I remember very well these single shot shotguns and .22 rifles being put into 55 gal drums and hoarded back, I was there assisting Mentors and others putting these back.


Re: Semi-Auto.

Go read some current legislations and some not only refer to "Semi-Auto Shotguns" , some actually list Remington 1100.

Good grief!
Do you folks realize how many bone stock, factory 1100s are used for Skeet, Trap, Sporting Clays, alone?
1100 comes in 12, 20, 28 and .410 and is used for all 4 events in Skeet.

Now add these same bone stock 1100s used for bird hunting, duck hunting, deer , small game, and just having a shotgun in the event the person has an invite to go shoot - whatever, maybe clays, or rabbits, or tin cans off a fence.


A LOT of folks went to 20 ga for their gauge of choice back in the day, to hedge against 12 ga restrictions.
Ducks were felled, so were geese, and deer.

Many went to Double barrel guns, like 311s, , to hedge against restrictions as well.

You cannot find a good used 20 ga SxS or O/U - often.
Try talking someone out of a SKB O/U 20 ga with both barrels being fixed skeet choke- they are not letting go of it.

Another little secret was the 28 ga and it using slugs.
.550 ( 28ga) is not far off from .54 caliber, which history will share has been quite effective against enemies, Deer, Elk, Bison, and the like.


A new Benelli Semi-Auto is how much? $1200 ?

What if gun restrictions re-interpret "semi-auto" including shotguns?

Set aside 12 gauge being restricted as LE, and Miltary uses this gauge.
Set aside restrictions on how many rounds, like even as little as 3, as that all person is allowed to hunt Waterfowl with, most gun clubs do not allow more that 3, actually 2 shots on targets and ..

-How many Pump guns, can one buy for $1200
-How many Double barrels?
-Single shots?

If the Restrictions include "Repeating"

-How many Double barrel or Single shots?


I need to know how to run the gun I have - Clint Smith.

I rest my case.

Steve

 

[riverdog]

Stress is an interesting thing. When it strikes we usually fall back to muscle memory or a minimal training level to get through. Repetition is a good thing so shooting clay games is good because it's very repetitious, but it isn't particularly stressful, you have all day to load two rounds and most of the time you just stand around holding the gun muzzle down with an open action -- not stressful.

That said, Clay game fields are much more common than tactical houses, so it's practice that is readily available. Training at Thunder Ranch would be great but it's not very convenient or cost effective. Even with a TR shotgun course in your resume', without regular training those skills will degrade. So Clay fields seem to be the most likely option for live-fire, and then walk through the motions in your house, think through the likely situations. Where is the best place to set up and avoid a trap.

Jeff White is absolutely correct with "shoot one, load one". You can shoot any gun dry and when you do you're hosed. Even if you decide a Benelli M1 Super 90 is THE gun, keep the magazine topped off as you shoot so that when you do get in a bind the magazine starts out full. The timing of reloads in a real world situation is not necessarily in your control unless you decide up front to reload at every break -- shoot one, load one; shoot two, load two; never let the gun run dry; always load with a round in the chamber. Practice topping off the tube as you continue to scan the field, don't look at the gun, your hand or the ammo pouch. It would be a shame to get caught with an empty gun, but with 00B rounds still available in whatever pouch or attachment you use to carry ammo. How much ammo do you have available? How much do you realistically expect to need?

That topping off thing is right on target, but it's also something that's tough to practice. Nobody practices "shoot one, load one" on a Clay field; there it's load one, shoot one, open action and stand around -- not exactly perfect practice. I need to find a shooting partner with the right mind-set so that when shooting Skeet we can modify to shoot all doubles, maybe load two, shoot two, load two, shoot two -- time the reload), then switch. Hmmm

 

[sm]

A Skeet field has always been a training tool for me, and those I assist with in shotgun use, including defensive use.

They learn safety, gun fit (both for clay/hunting, and defensive) how to run the gun and other correct basic fundamentals.

Some may have shot skeet, or do shoot skeet, some never have, but the skeet field is one training tool.

Forget "registered targets" and these flying through the "reg loop", forget standing on the station pads.

We don't call for birds.

Stand facing low 8, with a 4" disc that will scream out at your nose at 55 mph.

We did not know about Tueller drills back in the day, nor 1.5 seconds, or 21 steps, we just knew we had to learn our safe distance from a threat.

Low 8 is cranked down to fly more flat, student is back further than low 8 station pad, and without a warning, here comes that 4" disc at 55 mph at their nose.

I was taught to shoot from low gun, and teach to shoot from low gun.
Nobody goes around with a pre mounted gun out hunting when a bird flushes, or a rabbit, and for sure no one is going to going about the house with one pre mounted.

Correct basic fundamentals , like mounting gun to face, smooth, but quick.
Safety is paramount with a student, and they know I and mine mean to keep them safe.
I am right there beside them with practiced plan to pull them "off the line".
We even use a "safety rope" when more than one is assisting, If I am not fast enough, the other person assisting will "pull off the line".

We stand there without a shotgun, to let the student see what to expect, off the line of flight, we pull/ let them pull, and starting way back, walk up.

The brain remembers, and inputs all this into its human computer.
In a short time that "fast" target is "not as fast" as the brain and computer have processed all this.

Just one lesson we share, as if a threat breaks down that front door, and is rushing in, with a gun, knife, crowbar, can the person get a quick effective hit??


Now before 5 stand come to be, we tweaked a skeet field, by adding traps, just like a 3 stand.
Heck I had special set up for My Game, with a trap on top of High and Low house.

Now we did things like toss out fire cracker, and even the big ones the Army had.
Or a group shooting into a berm let loose with live gun fire, even full auto.

Set up with string the layout of a house and have a fridge, to be used as cover and one trap be set to throw clays at that fridge...one right after another a clay hitting that fridge and the shooter having to shoot other presentations, not called for.

We set up trip wires, with confetti poppers and one had to shoot and scoot on a skeet field and not trip a wire.

Targets were shot from on the ground, sitting, in chair, with a table, up and over the head (try low 7, an outgoer for practice) , from a recliner, and even bed.

Stationary and moving targets, on a skeet field.
White targets were "no shoot" or "good guys", orange were bad guys.

Orange might be a bad guy running toward a bedroom, or section of a office area...where a child's bedroom was or the secretary might be taken hostage.


We had a tennis ball thrower we used, and this was also used on a skeet field.
It was quite useful, lots of folks practiced shooting a rabid dawg, coming at them, from ground level, porch level ( build a platform) and pick up truck bed.

We just took reality, and adapted a skeet field.

We had lights like police, fire and ambulance, and sirens going, daylight, low light and even dark...
Low light might the only light being a single "lamp" from anther "room".

Sketches from a home or business, line it out, use boxes and use a skeet field.

Dummy shells were used a lot, shoot one, load one...we did this indoors as well doing set ups and lessons.
WE did in real homes, and townhouses.
Lots and lots of single shots were used in such settings.
Just easier to get used to moving, and using cover, and having to manipulate the gun.

Triple checked for safety, we even had one single shot, with the firing pin removed.
A 870 has its firing pin shortened where it could not punch a primer ( it was a training gun, painted baby blue).

Fact is, a lot of folks used a 26" (IC) 28" (Mod) or 30" (Full) fixed choked gun for everything.
That is all they had.
So lessons were using what they had, and we stuck on barrel like they had.
Cops and Military, stuck on a 18"or 20" as they were issued.

So yes, one can use a long barrel gun for defense, it just takes knowing the gun, just knowing how to us a short barrel gun.

Crazy Quail.
I learned to pull this game from the best fella ever on pulling this game.

Serious lessons, I pulled these too.
I admit, I can't do well with my own "pulling" , but I have tripped up some Special Forces, Rangers, SWAT, US Marshalls, FBI, Sheriff Dept, City and State and other folks, and more than once.

The deal was to push it, kick it up a notch or three and put on pressure.
I can pull these quite well.

Then we all assist one another on what went correct, what did not and work it out.


There 5 things one must do in order to shoot a shotgun and make hits.

It does not matter what the target is, one must do these 5 things correctly.
Clays, deer, waterfowl, turkey, small game, 3 gun or more serious.
Stationary or Moving, it does not matter, you have to do these 5 things.

Clint Smith in his video using various platforms, did these 5 correct things.

One builds upon the foundation of correct basic fundamentals.
Yes one learns other correct basic fundamentals, [advanced] and still has to do 5 things correctly - as they learn more skill sets.

Still you cannot do anything without the correct basic fundamentals, and you must do 5 things in order to fell what needs felled.


Can't buy it - gotta earn it! - me

 

[huckster]

I was born in 1963....


back then we listened to our elders. I certainly enjoy listening to them to this day.


But I was also brought up to make a point with as few words as possible.


Shoot what you know how to shoot, and don't depend on something you don't know how to shoot.