Cnbc remington hit job

[Uncle Mike]

trigger weight isnt even remotely related to the "problem".

It most certainly is, most of the inadvertent sear releases, with regards to this design of trigger, can be traced to maladjustment of the sear engagement depth, often the 'mechanic' adjusting the trigger will reduce the sear engagement depth to dangerous values to lessen trigger creep, with this type of trigger, the sear depth is super critical with regards to the correct, as designed, operation of the trigger.

While there is absolutely NO good excuse for a rifle to fire while in safe mode, as the failed Remingtons have done, this trigger is flawed by design, since connector displacement can occur IF rust or corrosion, dirt, whatever displaces the connector, I have heard of water freezing in these triggers and causing sear release while the safety is in the safe position.

I guess it is like anything else...a little maintenance now and again prevents big problems!

I'll agree with stratman, the sear should not release without pulling the trigger, no matter what, the Remington trigger should have been changed years ago to a fool proof design, a design that requires little maintenance.

 

[Maverick223]

I did watch the show, and found it to be as objective as such an emotional topic can be presented.

Stayed up late to watch it this morning, and I completely agree with your assessment. The "investigation" was objective and not the least bit biased against Remington (other than perhaps their ignorance of a known defect) nor anti-2A. I urge those that have not watched it to do so, I felt it was both educational and interesting.

Maybe I'll change my mind after I watch it, but maybe I won't either.

I did, and I do not retract my previous thoughts...it is far from what I would consider to be a "hit job".

I'll agree with stratman, the sear should not release without pulling the trigger, no matter what, the Remington trigger should have been changed years ago to a fool proof design, a design that requires little maintenance.

I, too, have to agree; that 5.5c (cost of upgraded trigger design) would have been well spent.

 

[ElToro]

i watched it tonight. i think Rems goose is cooked as they seem to have known about an issue since day 1 in 1946.

probly something she did hundred of times before , unloading at the end of the day. and she probly had no idea the boy was on the other side of the trailer. BUT she did point into a trailer. would you unload your gun, rem 700 or not, pointed at your car or ATV or horse at the end of your hunt? if she had pointed strait down or even strait up or into a mound of dirt the boy would be alive today. one of the day 1 rules is
"dont point the gun at anything you dont intend to shoot" yes i know it was an accident and not intentional, but she also didnt have a problem potentially blowing a hole in her horse trailer, regardless if the boy was on the other side or not. im sure she has serious psych issues after knowing she accidentally killed her own baby. she wont ever be the same. she has to make her own peace with god.

dont freaking cover anything with the muzzle of any gun you dont want shot.

 

[Tyrannosaurus]

Remington Model 700 questioned on CNN

I'm reading this article on CNN.com that's got me a little confused. How can any firearm discharge without pulling the trigger?

A 10-month investigation by CNBC has found that at least two dozen deaths and more than 100 injuries have been linked to the signature product of an iconic American company.

The Remington Model 700-series rifle - with more than 5 million sold - is one of the world’s most popular firearms. Famous for its accuracy, the rifle is now the target of a series of lawsuits claiming that it is unsafe and susceptible to firing without pulling the trigger....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39762676/ns/business-cnbc_tv/

 

[22-rimfire]

I saw the program this evening. It would seem that Remington has a bit of a problem and a significant financial burden in the coming year. I personally have not observed this problem and I always hold to the keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. However, if the M700 goes off when you push the safety off, it sure would tend to mess up a hunt not to mention the safety issue.

 

[clem]

I bought my 700 in 1970 and I have fired thousands of rounds through it with out any problems.

As said, be careful with ANY weapon!

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I bought my 700 in 1970 and I have fired thousands of rounds through it with out any problems.

Right. Remington estimated that only 1% of the gun were leaving the factor were likely to have problems for no other reason than they didn't work right. That was back in the 70s and they had about 2 million units on the street, so about 20,000 rifles, brand new, unmodified, could discharge in the manner described.

An interview with Mike Walker indicated that the problem might have been more with the manufacture of the guns rather than the design of the fire control system, though Walker reported the problem BEFORE the guns went into production, suggested a 5.5 cent fix, and Remington blew him off. He notified them of his concerns until he left and after. It wasn't until what, 3 years ago that Remington introduced that fix and offers the X line. It only took them 60 years.

Add to that the problem that any sort of moisture or dust in the fire control could impact the system, and the number jumps. In short, the mechanism is meant to work when in perfect shape and is easily influenced by dust, rust, or debris. The only way to be sure that everything is working properly after you have had the gun out in the rain on a dusty ride is to be a qualified Rem 700 techie or smith or have one look at it for you.

Still, 1% is a HUGE number when you are talking about millions of units (now up to 5 million) and the type of instrument that has the problem.

 

[mbopp]

Back in the early '80's I had a M700ADL in .243. AFTER I "tweaked" the trigger for a lighter pull and less creep (yes, I'll admit it) I could get it to fire by:
1) Apply safety
2) Pull trigger (no fire)
3) Release safety (BOOM!)

Yes I had an AD, but it was after I lined up on a groundhog and flipped the safety off. I re-adjusted the trigger for more weight and engagement and never had the issue again.

And I would swear Remington had a recall on the M700 right around that time frame for the same issue, but maybe I'm mistaken.

 

[renegadelizard]

First thing i would like to address is when did a horse trailer become a safe backstop?...this program was a simple character assassination....nothing more...take the most popular firearm in the U.S. and turn it into something eveil..BOO!...guns are bad...now..IIRC, either last year or the year before last, knife wounds became the number one cause of injury in the hunting woods, surpassing hypothermia even....now i ask, how many law suits have you seen against a knife company?....how many CNBC specials?...Where is the anti knife lobby?...Maybe Jack Belk should get involved in this too...im sure someone would pay him as well....which brings up yet another question...since when did paid testimony become ethical?...

 

[Rod4277]

Remington Model 700 Issue

I don't trust CNBC! That been said I own a nice Model 700 BDL and never had any trouble with it. My hunting buddy's also own several model 700's. A few years ago we were all out at a private range and taking turns test firing to sight in our hunting rifles just before deer season was to open. One of my good friends who is a highly skilled and experienced rifleman had a chilling incident with the firearm firing when flipping the safety off. We were all startled especially the shooter as he proclaimed he had not touched the trigger. Fortunately other rules of firearm safety were followed and the round went down range in a save direction. We actually attempted to duplicate the issue and we could not. Now that this news has surfaced regarding Remington model 700’s this make us wonder. Now as I understand it is earlier models of the 700 that are affected. All the newer ones allow you to open the bolt with the safety in the save position. My rifle is newer and has this feature. My ears are open to this issue and I want to hear the facts.

 

[SSN Vet]

I've got nothing against Remington or the M700..

but I've seen this trigger/safety issue discussed many times on THR, and it is one of the reasons why I chose a Savage for my first bolt action rifle.

Not the only one, but it did factor in.

No regrets with the Savage.

 

[Joe Demko]

I have a 70's vintage Remington Mohawk 600 of which I am the first and only owner. The trigger has never been modified from how it left the factory. Although it has only happened a single time, I have personally experienced exactly the discharge described. I switched the safety to the fire position in order to open and unload the gun. When I did so, the gun discharged with my fingers nowhere near to the trigger. My dad, who was present at the time, is like a lot of you guys. He simply refuses to believe that such a thing could be. If the gun discharged, fingers must have been on the trigger.
I haven't hunted with, or even shot, that rifle since the mid-80's. I keep it out of sentimental value, but I don't trust it worth a hoot.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

There was no way for her to know that the gun was going to fire and that her son was in line with the bullet. What could she have done better

Pointed the muzzle at the ground, of course!

 

[Girodin]

a father searching for answers about the death of his nine-year-old son.

I have a pretty good idea what the real answers for him are, someone failed to safely handle the weapon.

The bullet went through the trailer exiting an striking her son. There was no way for her to know that the gun was going to fire and that her son was in line with the bullet. What could she have done better

Really??????????? Point it at the freaking ground. It stands to reason that someone is somewhere on the other side of the the walls of your trailer. And the fact that you don't know is the all the more reason to do so.

 

[Maverick223]

which brings up yet another question...since when did paid testimony become ethical?...

I don't know that he was paid, but expert testimony often is, and as long as there is no conflict of interest, it should be. In my industry, forensic engineers get paid for depositions describing the manner of collapse or in most cases the deterioration of a structure as well as the cause. Should our knowledge and labor be free as well?

It is NOT the same as paying someone to say what you like...that is unethical, but not what I believe is happening here.

 

[goldberj]

Hi, jmr40. I do digital work for Remington, and hope you continue to feel comfortable using Remington firearms. All firearms should be properly maintained and adjusted only by a qualified gunsmith. If you have any concerns about your Remington firearm, have it inspected by a qualified gunsmith before use.

 

[Uncle Mike]

All firearms should be properly maintained and adjusted only by a qualified gunsmith. If you have any concerns about your Remington firearm, have it inspected by a qualified gunsmith before use.

And there it is!

You should have your rifle 'inspected' from time to time anyway, problem is, the majority of folks do not know this, do not understand that the particular rifle they have 'could' develop unsafe characteristics due to worn parts or the accumulation of foreign material within the trigger group, and although it is mentioned in most owners operating manuals, it is not adequately communicated by the manufacturers!

 

[Double Naught Spy]

which brings up yet another question...since when did paid testimony become ethical?

Based on what I have read, it has been in common use in the US since the 1940s, even longer if you include all those folks who might be involved with a case getting paid for their time to be in and around court. They are not paid for testimony per se, but for their time to be involved with the case. I am sure professional witnesses have been paid long before the 1940s, 60-70 years seemed sufficient for a quick search.

Say somebody sues me for a product they claim is defective. I think my product is fine, but my opinion isn't going to mean a thing as I am the one being sued. Let's say you happen to be a profession involved in a related field who has the ability and the expertise to test my product. I hire you to test my product and the results indicate that my product is not to blame. Cool. Now I need you to testify as to your testing of my product. Are you going to do it for free? You have a job and a life outside of my little court case. So how can I get you to testify as to your work and your findings? I have to pay you in order to compensate you for your time, expenses, etc.

Hi, jmr40. I do digital work for Remington, and hope you continue to feel comfortable using Remington firearms. All firearms should be properly maintained and adjusted only by a qualified gunsmith. If you have any concerns about your Remington firearm, have it inspected by a qualified gunsmith before use.

In the 1970s, Remington's own testing of new production rifles showed that 1% could be "tricked" into firing without the trigger being pulled. At that time, it would mean about 20,000 units were prone to this problem without any modifications by the user, dirt, wear or tear.

At $70-100 per hour gunsmithing fees with a minimal charge of a half hour to look for problems that may not be the result of dirt or wear and tear is pricey. The problem is, many of the shooters that experienced their rifles discharging did not have any concerns about the safety of their rifles before the incidents that occurred. This particular problem doesn't necessarily have any telltale signs that it is about to manifest itself. The problem is so stealthy that Remington had to develop a test (the screwdriver test) to look for the problem because it was not a problem that was being caught by the normal inspection process by their smiths.

 

[brettrow]

hard to avoid mentioning liberals but I will try. Im sure you have all noticed when watching your favorite shows on tv, anytime a gun issue is mentioned its all about the evil of guns. I was watching a show on Tuesday night, and the boyfriend found his girlfriends hand gun in her night stand after she had been attacked a few episodes earlier. The music for the scene and the look on his face was like "Oh my Gosh, guns are evil and are never the answer!" I had to turn it off. The media is quite powerful. When you control the entertainment industry, you control weak minds.

 

[jmr40]

There is no such thing as a safe direction to have an AD. If the bullet strikes the ground it is most likely going to deflect anyway and could still hit bystanders. The bullet that went through the trailer actually deflected at least once before hitting the boy. His mother had the gun pointed downward, it hit the floor of the trailer and deflected up. The exit wound was 4" higher than the entry wound.

This is a clear case of a defective product that Remington knew about years ago. They had over 10,000 documented cases where the guns fired, and no one was injured. Remington actually was able to make this happen quite often during factory tests. It happened once during a trial when a Remington rep was demonstrating how safe the gun was in court. It dry fired on him when he released the safety while he was trying to show the jury it was impossible.

I have been able to get my 700 do do this a very few times by cocking the gun, pulling the trigger with the safety on, then releasing the safety. It is rare, but I can assure it can happen to clean, unmodified guns. Yes, even yours.

The heart of the problem may well be dirty triggers. But that is also part of the design problem. On a Remington trigger all the moving parts are enclosed so it is impossible to inspect or clean them. Look at a Ruger or pre-2008 Winchester trigger. No problems inspecting them for problems or cleaning

 

[rcmodel]

Winchester Model 70 also uses a three-position safety on the bolt sleeve that locks the firing pin in place so you can open the bolt with the "positive" safety still on.

I think Remington might have too in 1948 if Winchester hadn't of had a patent on it.

rc

 

[Robert]

Cnbc remington hit job

Only a hit job if it's not true. I have seen enough evidence from H&H Hunter and others to lead me to believe that the 700 does indeed have an issue. Does every 700 ever made have this issue? No. But it seems to me that enough of them do to make it a problem.

 

[V1ROT8]

I find it intereting that we should not mention the leftist media "bashing" the firearm industry.
I just bashed them.

 

[Robert]

We don't do bashing as it is not constructive. Just bashing for the sake of bashing is a sure way to get a post removed, a thread locked or even an infraction.

 

[Girodin]

There is no such thing as a safe direction to have an AD. If the bullet strikes the ground it is most likely going to deflect anyway and could still hit bystanders.

Yes but there is certainly a spectrum. It would be erroneous to say that all directions are equally unsafe. Pointed down range with a bullet stop back there would be relatively safe and pointing it at someones head would be the other end of the spectrum. the muzzle has to go somewhere and inhabited/inhabitable structures are probably further up the unsafe spectrum than the ground.

There seemingly was a design defect.