CNN Piece on Arming Teachers

[Abby]

Just saw an interesting little piece on CNN about a Wisconsin state legislator's public statements that teachers, school administrators and other school employees who are qualified should be allowed to carry in schools.

The legislator supporting the idea was (forgive the spelling - they didn't tag the interview so I'm guessing here) Frank LeFay.

The "opposing viewpoint" was provided by state legislator Spencer Black.

They also used a lengthy soundbite from a gentleman (also unidentified) with the Madison school board, who pointed out there would be about zero support for turning schools into "armed camps." But that's Madison, and, as I recall, it's a pretty fuzzy town.

The story was provided by WKOW TV - maybe they have a link on their website. I just thought this was interesting in light of our recent discussions here on the subject.

 

[The Cavalry]

I caught it this morning while flipping channels, good that CNN offered both perspectives albeit still tilted toward the anti side.

The elected official (bald guy, name??) offered nothing but retreaded strawmen to support his position. Not surprising.

 

[Green Lantern]

So I guess the "anti" would even be opposed to armed security and LEO then?

BTW, it's fun to go to Snopes and reference the "professional: DEA agent who shot himself to people that scream "civilians arent TRAINED to carry guns!"

Frankly, I'm just glad that people are TALKING about this! The more people are forced to think about it, the better chance that it will hit them that it's actually a darn good idea!

 

[280PLUS]

Yup, all teachers should be required to attend some intensive anti terror / famfire exercises at which they must qualify as being above a certain level of proficiency in anti terror techniques and use of firearms as a part of their teaching qualifications. Look at the Russian school episode fostered by the Chechnyans. How long are we going to sit back and do nothing about training this population to fight back? Till something to match the magnitude of THAT tragedy takes place here?

 

[Silver Bullet]

What -- dialing 911 isn't good enough for them ?

 

[Low-Sci]

If something like Beslan happens here, I would doubt very much that the primary reaction would be an anti-terrorist initiative. I think its much more likely in this country to wind up as an anti-firearm initiative.

Because after all, maybe those poor, misunderstood fascist miscreants did kill kids, but they did it with guns that they bought right in our own neighborhoods, dont-cha-know.

If tomorrow a muslim shot up a school and left a pile of notes saying that he did it because Americans are infidels and all that happy business, it wouldn't be called terrorism; the press has already proven that by the way they've handled other stories. Its not domestic terrorism, is just, uh, you know, some guy who happens to be a violent islamist and who sympathizes with, the, uh, terrorists.

I think the media would react to a Beslan-style situation in the same way they react to other terrorist actions in the US. They'd call it something else and hope it goes away.

 

[Master Blaster]

You know I wonder if a local Sherriff could deputize a few volunteer teachers and or administrators, so they could carry in school as Law Enforcement Officers.

That would avoid depending on the Nitwits and Bliss Ninnies elected to the legislature to pass a law.

Just a thought.

 

[Keith Wheeler]

You know I wonder if a local Sherriff could deputize a few volunteer teachers and or administrators, so they could carry in school as Law Enforcement Officers.

That's a fantastic solution, and one that doesn't require spending stupid amounts of federal tax dollars on debating and writing laws that don't do diddly anyway.

This is how we should solve all of our "local" problems -- at the local level.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

If a gunman enters a classroom, barricades himself with the students, and opens fire, how will having an armed teacher next door help? How would you train an armed teacher next door to respond to that situation? The average CCWer would be under no obligation to intervene in a situation like that, but would a teacher be expected to intervene? If so they would need LEO style training, not just a CCW class.

It is possible that an armed teacher might be able to shorten the duration of a murder spree (which is obviously good), but they won't prevent school shootings. So if all you are trying to do is reduce the body count, then discussing arming teachers makes sense, but if you are trying to prevent school shootings, you are going to have to look for other answers.

Its hard for me to imagine that most elementary schools, whose teachers are usually female, are going to be able to muster enough teachers willing to carry guns and train for it to make a difference.

I am not really opposed to teachers carrying weapons, I just doubt this will be a solution to the problem. As long as their are insane, unpredictable people in a free society, they will be able to cause great harm before they are being stopped. Because these incidents usually involve the insane, I don't think there is anyway to prevent school shootings. Arming teachers may stop the shootings after the fact, but won't prevent. Not all the worlds problems are solved with guns.

I think it would help some to control the entrances to the school better. If a man doesn't have a kid in that school, and isnt a contractor working there, he really is unlikely to have any legitimate business there.


Another thing that troubles me about arming teachers is that a teacher will be carrying a gun every day around potentially unruly and dangerous children. This would be almost analagous to prison gaurds carrying guns around prisoners. Weapons retention would be critical. I suspect there would be cases where a disruptive student would attempt to take the teachers gun. This is different than in the case of the average CCWer who is around disruptive people very little, and certainly is around mobs of people very little. Teachers are surrounded by disruptive people every day. I think it would take more vigilance on the part of a teacher surrounded by many students to retain the weapon.

Would it be better to just keep a pistol caliber carbine locked in the principals office, and just train a couple of the teachers how to use it?

 

[Keith Wheeler]

...prevent school shootings...

We can not prevent bad things from happening. We can react in a manner that will lessen the amount of bad that happens.

Seat belts.
Fire extinguishers.
Sidearms.
Helmets.
Life preservers.
Bandages.

None of these prevent bad from happening. They are all there to react to the bad.

We can mitigate; we can't prevent.

 

[GEM]

Being a teacher and having a fair amount of the kind of training available to the fat middle aged civilian, I have thought about this quite a bit.

I think the simplest solution is to just allow CCW in schools and get rid of bans to that. Of course, I am against all property bans except for technical reasons. I don't buy the castle/private crappola if you are open for business - but that's a hijack.

The problem with the officially armed teacher is that the person becomes a pseudo - LEO and that is not the role for most of us. Your identity would become known such that you might be targeted specifically by the shooter first or called on by others to unlimber your gun to stop a fight. There is a great deal of implications for the officially armed teacher.

What would be the training standard? Who would bear the cost? The Israelis have a populace that has universal military service. We don't.

A better solution is just to allow those who qualify under state CHL regs to carry. No one knows.

Operationally, if you have J frame and the Beslan crew arrives - you are screwed. If you have a J frame and a nut walks into class, you might pop him by surprise while he is jabbering. That's a judgement call.

It is also a reason why serious CHL folks should train but most don't.

Since only 1 to 4% of the state populations with CHLs carry, even with liberalization of the carry laws in school (shouldn't it be conservativization -haha) - I wouldn't expect that you would get that many carrying teachers. But even that number might have some deterrent effect.

It also might get the teacher shot immediately on entrance of the nut.

Basically, you need armed guards at each door for true defense against a rampage killer. However, that's expensive and I don't think we are ready to deputize the local gun person do that - they become pseudo-LEOs again with all kinds of problems there.

Legalize carry in schools using the state regs for the permit and hope for the best in my opinion. I do opine that if you were in such a situation, go get trained on your own dime.

 

[carlrodd]

I think it would help some to control the entrances to the school better. If a man doesn't have a kid in that school, and isnt a contractor working there, he really is unlikely to have any legitimate business there.-lone gunman

so schools become fortresses....that's really conducive to learning...kids feeling like they're entering jail every day. these shootings simply are not common, so turning all schools into prisons is overkill. and again LG, you keep going on about the special training and what not needed for teachers who would carry, as if they would be doing so in some sort of official capacity. all anybody is really saying is, get rid of these senseless laws that prohibit firearms in and around schools.

there are so many different scenarios that pop up with these school shootings...not just some guy locking himself in a room with hostages. a teacher who holds a CCW, presumably is already enthusiastic and serious enough about firearms already, that it can be presumed this individual will have some semblance of an idea in regard to 'what to do', and presumably, working in a school, would have a vested interest...a passion even, about protecting students.

 

[Leatherneck]

GEM makes good points. Why not remove the school-zone restriction on CCW rights and have the schools adopt a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy.

TC

 

[MechAg94]

Also, you could make CHL or other firearms familiarization/training classes qualify for teachers annual training requirement. That would encourage at least more familiarity with firearms and more teachers maybe willing to carry.

I agree that arming teachers is a partial solution at best and doesn't prevent any or all incidents. However, I would certainly feel better if a teacher blew away one of these guys before killing a bunch of kids instead of hearing he killed himself after shooting a bunch of kids.

 

[romma]

At Least

if a teacher is armed, and the "attack whistle" is blown, instead of children merely trying to hide under desks and wait for armed killers to go room to room methodically blowing them away at will, there is at least some defense till the pros' show up to take them out.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

carlrodd,

What would be your objection to just keeping a carbine locked in the principals office?

It would allow rapid access to a firearm if an incident occurred, and eliminate the need for teachers to keep a firearm on them at all times (thus reducing the risk a bad kid would snatch it). I don't think this would significantly slow down response time, since not all teachers would be CCWing anyway.

This would be similar to the way prison guards don't carry guns around prisoners.

I am not advocating turning schools into fortresses. All I am talking about is locking the front door, and making people be let in after their identity and reason for being there has been confirmed. This is like locking your front door at home. Does that make you feel like you live in a prison?

My concerns about arming teachers boil down to:

1. I think training would be needed and the program needs to be voluntary. In Georgia, there is no training requirement for a CCW, and I think they would need some training because whether you want to admit it or not, if the government lets them carry guns on school property, they will be doing this with in an official capacity (I believe the populace will consider it official anyway).

2. Since school shootings are rare, we don't want more people killed by a student snatching a gun from a teacher. Thats why a carbine in the principals office might be a better idea. Its going to be hard for a teacher to teach if he has to make sure 30 unruly students arent trying to get the gun.

3. If a program to allow teachers to carry is ever approved, there needs to be tort limitations so that the school and teacher can't be sued if they are operating under official rules of engagement. I think that is why any carry program would have to be officially sanctioned. If the teachers are operating within the "standard of care", they would be immune from lawsuits.

 

[David904]

I gotta say that I'm somewhat torn on this issue.

Let me start by saying that at the risk of sounding hypocritical, I am against schools being gun-free zones, but I do have some reservations regarding arming teachers.

I used to teach - middle school. And the majority of teachers I have known have either no interest in firearms or are antis. I was very much so an anomaly. Anyway, most of the teachers there wouldn't be capable of handling a firearm in a tough situation - Heck, I practice a lot and I might screw up. But I have to say that I do feel pretty confident in my abilities. I'd love to be able to be armed in school. The emergency measure we were trained to employ in the event of a school shooting was to close/lock all the doors, have the kids sit quietly, and turn the lights off and await further instructions hopefully from the police SWAT team coming to our rescue. Seems like pretty weak tea to me.

Teachers don't get paid very much to begin with and work looooong hours: regular school days, after school P/T conferences, faculty meetings, required seminars, grading papers/tests/quizzes, lessson planning, progress report writing, etc. Essentially you don't have a whole lot of free time. So when do we propose to squeeze in tactical shooting training? The Israelis, much to their credit, have made it work. But they all have had mandatory military service and therefore official firearms training.

Funny... during this little ramble of mine I seem to have come to a solution that I would find acceptable. Every classroom should have a shotgun (appropriately secured) so that a teacher could effectively bar entry to a room. Those who want to CCW in school (the teachers/not the parents) need to pass a course in handling situations like they might encounter. Parents only need their CCW permit. Most teachers though probably would forego the CCW option. I would not.

 

[Abby]

Also interesting about this, I thought, was the location.

Isn't Wisconsin one of the few remaining states with NO provision for legal carry for the "commoners?"

The fact that it's being discussed at might be a good sign.

 

[MechAg94]

Lone Gunman, that ain't a bad idea. Need to make sure at least 5 or 6 people have training and access to it though.
Also, it needs to be left up to each school on where to put it, otherwise it is just another part of the planning of the sicko.

 

[GEM]

Mandating training would open the can of worms that happened with the armed pilots. There would be massive foot dragging, terribly high standards that many could not pass and may be designed to be inappropriate and the like.

If you want us to be commandos, that ain't going to happen. If you want commandos, specifically hire well trained campus cops. To my school's credit they have put effort into training our force.

I repeat, whatever is good enough for the state CCW or CHL should be good enough. Mandating training will just be a tool of discouragement and a tool of target identification.

Now I am torn - I do know CCW folks among the teachers who have NO training to those who have a good deal. From bozos to Army pistol champs - however, I've decided that just legalizing CCW on campus is the best, easiest and fastest.

There is a risk of a teacher shoot going bad. What is the risk/benefit ratio though as compared to stopped a nut from raping and murdering our children?

 

[Frog48]

You know I wonder if a local Sherriff could deputize a few volunteer teachers and or administrators, so they could carry in school as Law Enforcement Officers.

I have no problem with that. Its a better answer than having the state and feds sticking their nose into it.

Or an even better solution, on the individual level... send your kids to private schools (if realistic, financially). I know that when/if the time comes, my kids are going to a Catholic high school. I'm not sure if the education will be any better, but there will definitely be more discipline than at any public school.

 

[Henry Bowman]

I find it amazingly heartening that this question is even being discussed in the MSM.

 

[Sheldon J]

Tis how they stopped it in Israel, armed all the teachers with M16's school violence came to a screeching halt.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

Grant 48

Or an even better solution, on the individual level... send your kids to private schools (if realistic, financially). I know that when/if the time comes, my kids are going to a Catholic high school. I'm not sure if the education will be any better, but there will definitely be more discipline than at any public school.

In Georgia, this would not solve the problem, as it is a felony (with a 5 year minimum) to carry into a private or parochial school.

Best to check your state's laws.

My kid is in private school, but for teachers to carry would subject them to prison. Hopefully, the education and discipline are better.

 

[romma]

What would be your objection to just keeping a carbine locked in the principals office?

Well if I was a psycho killer trying to rack up a body count, I would double tap the principle first, and maybe even take his carbine in the process... Once word gets out what the firearms policy is, piece of cake.