Colt Super .38 from VT Motor Vehicle Dept.

[steven58]

Howdy!,

I just had the opportunity to shoot a very intriguing pistol. It's a Colt model 1911 A-1 in Super .38 caliber. The serial # was 1900X. This should be from the mid 1930s.

The pistol shows slight honest wear to the grips and metal surfaces that indicate it was carried in a right hand flap holster, shot regularly but not excessively and generally well taken care of.

It currently belongs to a police officer acquaintance of mine who inherited it from his grandfather who was in the Vermont Motor Vehicle Department. I have directed him to the proper individuals at Colt to research and provide him a certificate of origin.

The pistol shot very well. While the current owner has never broken it down to lube or clean it he has "shot it from time to time" Today we went through 100 rounds with no failures of any kind. Accuracy was 6"-8" 8 shot groups from 25 yds.

What sets this apart from any run of the mill 1911 Super .38 is the engraving of "VT MVD No 27" on the front strap!

My research indicates that organization was founded in 1927 and until 1947 was the only agency with state wide police authority in VT.

In 1947 the VT Department of Public Safety / State Police "began with twenty-seven highway patrolmen who transferred from the Motor Vehicle Department and thirty probationary Troopers".

What has me scratching my head is why would VT MVD be issuing such an exotic and expensive sidearm in the middle of the depression? How bad-a** were these guys in those days and what the heck were they doing that their motorcycle cops were issued such arms?

I would have expected N framed .38 revolvers loaded with 38/44 loads, or at most 1911s in .45 ACP. But the added expense of 1911s and .38 Super? It has me real curious as to why...

If any of you know please chime in!

Here's pics.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

If the money was there to be spent, you could acquire a letter from Colt that would tell you when and where they shipped the gun, and maybe even get info on the number purchased, contract info, etc They charge for historical letters.

 

[steven58]

yes, the owner is already in the process of acquiring a letter from Colt. That will tell when it was made and shipped. To whom it was shipped and maybe info on how many other pistols were in that order (it is #27 but we don't know of how many).

My question is why would VT Highway Patrolmen of say 1936-1937 be riding around with Colt 1911s in Super .38? Wasn't there a depression on or something?

In comparison, what were Highway Patrol in IL, NY, or CA using at the time? I don't think it was Colt Super .38s!

If it wasn't for the engraving I'd write it off as a individual officers private or off duty weapon but it looks like factory engraving as an organizational # 27 out of X #. That's the big question...

 

[Z-Michigan]

I don't think 38 Super was as rare and viewed as exotic back then. In the 1930's, 9mm (9x19 or 9mm Luger or Parabellum) was rare in the US, .40 S&W wouldn't be invented for half a century and most other calibers we now think of hadn't been invented either. 38 Special was probably the police standard, and to some extent civilian standard (civilian ownership of handguns wasn't nearly as common then as today), and 45 ACP would have been viewed as a military cartridge that was bigger and more expensive than needed for police use. 38 Super was also marketed as having superior penetration, ideally suited for highway patrol duty. I don't think it was so much a fancy, exotic or "tactical" choice as it was a practical choice for the type of use. A 357 Magnum would have been far more exotic at the time.

 

[steven58]

I wasn't thinking of it as "exotic". I was thinking of it as more expensive with a more complex manual of arms than the, at the time, ubiquitous .38 revolver.

Now, I was not around then but from the many period films, newsreels, and photographs I have seen the uniformed PD almost always have revolvers as sidearms.

My understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, was that in that era Colt 1911s cost more than Colt revolvers and Super .38 1911s cost more than .45 cal 1911s. And yes, I agree that in the era of the "Registered Magnum" a S&W .357 would be more exotic and expensive than all of the above.

I know that the Super .38 was marketed on it's ability to penetrate auto bodies but so did stiff .38/44 loads. It just seems an unusual choice for VT Highway Patrol during the depression. It's not like VT was such a hotbed of violent crime then, was it?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The .38 Super was the M1911 of choice for highway patrolmen in those days -- as mentioned, it penetrated automobile bodies better than either the .38 Special or the .45 ACP. In that role, it competed head-to-head with the S&W .38/44 and .357 Magnum.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I'm sure it would have been more money than a 38 Spl revolver. How much more I don't know. Not sure it would have cost more than a 1911 in 45 ACP.

I suspect the rationale may be similar to why, today, we often find podunk departments that don't see a homicide once in a decade with things like 357 SIG and 10mm auto.

 

[surjimmy]

With the gangster's doing running and gunning robberies(Pretty boy Floyd, Bonnie & Clyde, Dillinger) the common side arm 38's would not go through the car doors. The 38 Super would.

 

[steven58]

Ok, I looked at a 1937 Colt Firearms Co. catalog and here's the deal on prices

a .38 cal. Police Positive $ 27.00 approx $ 403.00 in 09

a .38 spl. Official Police $ 30.00 approx $ 448.00 in 09

a .357 Magnum New Service $ 34.00 approx $ 510.00 in 09

a 1911 (.45 acp or Super .38) $ 36.75 approx $ 550.00 in 09

So the mystery is, why spend the extra money on the 1911?

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Truly Colt slowed way down during the depression, but if it was time to acquire new guns, I'm sure the state had the money. The depression was probably receding a little by 1935, and the prices of things was also down, so buying a gun was relative.....if you were a cop, or department, and you needed a gun, you bought it. Don't forget, it was the era of gangsters and band robbers, who used big guns, and police throughout the country had to battle them, or be prepared to, and the Super .38 had a good reputation, and was soon to be edged out by an even newer and more expensive gun, the .357 Magnum. Cops don't have to buy or use too many tools, like many other professionals do, so they just might have looked at the expense of an expensive gun as "life insurance".

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

If the DMV had armed agents at least they had good taste.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Like surjimmy said above, I'm guessing that the issue was penetration of car doors and glass during a time that organized crime wasn't always a behind the scenes thing. Gangsters were killing people as they saw fit to accomplish their goals, and not even bothering to hide the bodies, and I'd guess LEO's were all scared as hell doing there jobs.

The Super .38 would offer better ballistics, and a higher ammo capacity, and better penetration than a 6 shot .38 cal revolver.

In fact, Baby Face Nelson used a "Tommy Gun" chambered in .38 Super to shoot his way out of the Little Bohemia Lodge in northern Wisconsin. John Dillinger was also with this group that escaped. Nelson still holds the record for killing more on duty FBI agents than any other American citizen in history. This is a terrible fact, and I'm appauled at the idea of any LEO being killed in the line of duty, but I wonder how much of that can be attributed to his taste in superior firepower.

There was basically a war going on between gangsters and police and I'm guessing the department wanted to give there officers a fighting chance if they happened to pull over the wrong car.

 

[steven58]

All valid points. Especially about the MVD having good taste

Kind of shows how "everything old is new again" with our more recent LEO move from revolvers to autos.

I'd love to hear from anyone that has more info on the VT MVD Highway Patrol around 1937. Other than the info in my OP my Google-foo hit a dead end.

 

[38 Super Fan]

So the mystery is, why spend the extra money on the 1911?

Um...because it's a 1911.

 

[earplug]

Great choice for the VT guys

For the time and place,I think VT bought the best weapon available.
In many ways it would still be a viable choice.
I think the old 38 Super factory loadings were a bit hotter then the rounds available today.
Have to do some research on that.

 

[38 Super Fan]

I think the old 38 Super factory loadings were a bit hotter then the rounds available today.
Have to do some research on that.

Definately correct, the same could be said of some other old cartridges as well, the 357 magnum comes to mind.

 

[steven58]

Something that came to mind: The Highway Patrol of the day rode mainly on motorcycles. Most of the roads in VT back then were gravel roads. Wouldn't the 1911 be easier to clean of the dust, debris, rain and crud that would find it's way into the guts of any handgun carried day after day in a duty holster compared to a double action revolver?

 

[AmEngRifles]

What a beauty! Even with scratches, and finish wear, the thing is a classic beauty! Love the location of the Rampart Colt on the forward ejection side, unlike the later position on the opposite side. Also really like the classic early 20th century serifed type face of the "VT MVD". Real class, compared to some of the crappy scrolls and fonts used by manufacturers today.

The .38 Super is just a great cartridge. It didn't get military acceptance, at least not widespread, because the US military had already been through that debate and settled on the .45 auto, after poor performance with the .38 S&W, .38 Long, .38 Special and .38 Auto (the original 1908 cartridge, and not the hotrod of the later .38 Super) but civilian owners and police departments were under no such restrictions. Why wouldn't someone want the "hottest" new cartridge? I carry a .357 Sig Glock for all the same reasons I would have wanted the Colt 1911 in .38 Super back in 1930s America! Capacity, speed and power.

 

[AmEngRifles]

In response to your question Steven58...

Ok, I looked at a 1937 Colt Firearms Co. catalog and here's the deal on prices

a .38 cal. Police Positive $ 27.00 approx $ 403.00 in 09

a .38 spl. Official Police $ 30.00 approx $ 448.00 in 09

a .357 Magnum New Service $ 34.00 approx $ 510.00 in 09

a 1911 (.45 acp or Super .38) $ 36.75 approx $ 550.00 in 09

So the mystery is, why spend the extra money on the 1911?

ANSWER:
Extra capacity (firefights with gangsters went countrywide due to the automobile) and fast reloads. The .38 super was almost as powerful as the .357 magnum, and you got 3 extra rounds over the capacity of a 6 shooting revolver. Seems worth the extra money to me!

I think Vermont MVD must have had a progressive thinking government official making decisions. That was a good thing for their duty officers.

 

[AmEngRifles]

One other observation...

I thought I had read this before, but use of "body armor" by criminals is not new. Apparently gangster types of the 1920s and 1930s used forms of "body armor" during the commission of their crimes, and the .38 special was known to be a poor performer against such measures, hence the need for a higher velocity rounds like the .38 Super and .357 magnum. I believe both cartridges were specifically developed to address that issue.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Why a 1911 Super over the .357 New Service? Ever handle a New Service, or carry one?

 

[steven58]

Good point Sharps,

The new service I handled was a large heavy revolver.

 

[amd6547]

I believe there was a lot of smuggling of alcohol through vermont during prohibition...MVD would have been on the front line there.

 

[BullfrogKen]

I believe there was a lot of smuggling of alcohol through vermont during prohibition...MVD would have been on the front line there.

Sure would have been. They could have been using seized assets to help fund those .38 Supers.

 

[steven58]

While alcohol smuggling might have been an earlier issue, Prohibition was repealed in 1933. This pistol was shipped in 1934. Still, the prohibition experience probably still shaped their tactics.