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Combat Shotguns: Dying?

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Panzerschwein, Jul 4, 2016.

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  1. Kendal Black

    Kendal Black Member

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    40 yards is an incredibly long distance when measured against the usual self-defense episode. If you want to shoot a shotgun that far you might want some of this ammo.



    The JSSAP credited the shotgun with twice the short range hit probability of a rifle and also said it was nearly half again better than a submachinegun. If you're thinking of short range scenarios, you need to think hard about the shotgun.
     
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  2. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Better double check the length; that'd be an SBS.
    For my purposes, it is. I use it for HD, the longest shot in my house is a measured 11 yards. Also, your M1 carbine fires 1 110 gr. projectile per round. I have Win PDX1 in my Ithaca M37; that's one 1 437.5 gr. projectile plus 3 60 grain projectiles each round. Within that 11 yards, it's quite sufficient. Granted, your M1 carbine rounds are going just under 2000 fps, but I believe Newton is behind me in this one; 617.5x1300 > 110x2000.
    For 40 yards, I'm outside. I'd use my AK.
    Shotguns in the military today are used primarily for door breaching; This is because current engagements are mostly in wide open territory; When it goes back into the jungles, You'll see them on point again.

    We are in 100% agreement on patterning.
     
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  3. Crawdad1

    Crawdad1 Member

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    Even in WW2 the shotgun didn't see much use in Europe but in the Pacific its use was documented in every battle. I really have to shake my head at this argument, in close quarters there is nothing better, nor is there anything even close, to the effectiveness of a shotgun.
     
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  4. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

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    Got it. You're using two firearms.

    Are you carrying both when the fight starts or are you calling a time out so you can change weapons?:)


    Too me a combat shotgun looks like too much gun then not enough.

    Once I've taken care of the inside threat I'm not waiting for another one. The shelter in place BS I hear so much about just doesn't appeal to me.

    "Combat" or "tactical" shotgun is a marketing pitch. You can do the same thing with any shotgun, just change the barrel. Shotguns are pretty versatile, you just have to know how to make them that way. I have 3 barrels for my 870.

    Regarding the Win 97, I never paid much attention to it as the barrel came from the Winchester factory with the gun. It also has a 30" barrel with the same SN. You had me curious so I measured it, 20".
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  5. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Well, if I go outside it's no longer HD; It's offensive action. Barring TEOTWAWKI, that brings severe civil and criminal penalties. I live in the middle of town. If I lived in a rural area, my go to would be my AK.
    Not easy on some models; one that comes to mind is a bona fide combat shotgun, the Savage/Stevens M67/77 series, used in VN. The barrel is not easily removable. Nor the Savage/ Stevens 520/620 series, It is mounted en bloc with the magazine, and they are not usually interchangeable. 520/620 series were used during WWII.
    I have 3 barrels for my 870 also; 20 in. cyl, 28 in, RemChoke, and 20 in. Hastings cantilever rifled. Makes it quite handy.
    Does prison? Because if you go outside the door with your M1 Carbine a blazin' that's probably where you're headed. Unless you have incoming fire from outside, that is. Even then the cover or concealment afforded by firing from inside might make sense....


    Nice Model '97! :thumbup:
     
  6. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

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    I hate prison.:D But incoming fire, that's the thing I really hate. I live in a very rural neighborhood. Lots of woods and acres. If someone is trespassing and shooting at me I'll interpret that as they are trying to kill me. I can't manage a threat like that with a shotgun. I might miss and kill a chicken or something. Out here you just never know who's going to roll up. Seen some pretty questionable hombres on my property that gave me some BS story about why they were there. I never great strangers unarmed.

    Anyway, you seem to know your options pretty well. I love shotguns, I just put more faith in my carbine.:thumbup:
     
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  7. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Shotguns have some uses ARs do not have and multiple purpose munitions is one of them. My Dept uses shotguns for many things, and that versatility of ammo is a huge part of it when we have officers using 7.5 bird, (inside 20 yards it's considered lethal force against torso, usually patterned against lower extremities to take the fight out of them), and 60 caliber rubber sting balls for the same type of reason. We also use muzzle blast diversionary devices, and you think a 338 Mag is loud? This IS a cannon going off and a muzzle flash that would make a Mosin jealous! :D But, these are very special purpose munitions for very narrowly tailored applications, same as the bean bag rounds I have seen used. Those work, BTW. ;) We also use ARs and PCC, too. We're flexible that way.
    I do not have a shotgun myself, not a recoil junkie, and though I qualify Expert with ours every year, it doesn't give me warm fuzzies. Not saying anything bad about the firearm at all - it just isn't my cup of tea/bourbon/warm milk/etc. No biggie. I do want to get a double barrel 20 ga for the wife as I think it would be perfect for her limited recoil stature and should have enough power within the 5 yards max range, plus the intimidation factor is a large factor with her.
    I like the PCC as the replacement for the shotgun and I use my Scorpion pistol in the same "engagement envelope", (gee, that sounds so tacticool! ), but I realize the differences in fast application of deadly physical force, and the shotgun with 00 or 000 buck can put a LOT of lead downrange very fast.
    I have always heard that little gem, "With a shotgun, you don't have to aim, you can't miss!" Always said by those who have never fired a shotgun at a target at any distance, or who mistake the wad punching through the paper as lethal force. :) At 25 yards 00 Buck patterns across the chest of a B-27 out past the 8 ring in our rifle sighted 870s.
    Last...ooh, I'm gonna catch Hades for this one...

    Actually, the Czech vz-58 has a longer continuous track record than the M-16/AR-15, since the vz-58 went into service about 7 years earlier, and is still in service, mostly in its original configuration, though it is being replaced. Sorry, couldn't help myself on that one. ;)

    BTW, there is one authority I trust who was quite fond of a Stevens sawed off double barrel 12 ga, used it many times as a Detroit police officer, and that is Evan Marshall. He liked that boomer, but can't use one now due to age and wear and tear.
     
  8. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Where you're at, it's the better choice. This we're in agreement about.

    To paraprase CPT Willard, "I shot one of those when I was 19, and it dang near killed me!" Not quite, but it did hurt....
     
  9. Rexster

    Rexster Member

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    I just checked my Benelli M2. It is not dead yet. ;)

    My Remington 870P Police Magnums look OK, too. :)

    I added the Benelli M2 late last year, because my aging eyes like the bold, wide, squared-off dimensions of the barrel-mounted rifle sights on the M2 Tactical barrel. I actually bought the barrel pre-owned 2+ years ago, and finally got around to buying an M2 Field upon which to use it. Why? Well, five reasons come to mind: Nice, Berlin, Ohio State University, Federal Truball Deep Penetrator Slugs, and Stupid Bowl LI coming to town. I figured, correctly, that I would be assigned to barricade/road block duty. Forty hours of such duty, as it turned out. Brenneke, and Federal Truball Deep Penetrator slugs, do a better job against targets inside vehicles, such as hijacked trucks, than our mandated patrol rifle cartridge, the .223/5.56 55-grain JSP.
     
  10. Girodin

    Girodin Member

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    I believe there really are two distinct conversations, shot guns in law enforcement and shotguns for home defense. Although some of the considerations may overlap there really are a lot of considerations that apply to one role and not the other.

    Here is a thread that although it has some noise has a lot of on point discussion about shotguns in a LE role. https://primaryandsecondary.com/forum/index.php?threads/shotguns-why.74/

    It is undeniable that shotguns have begun to be supplanted by AR type guns. That doesn’t mean that the shotguns do not still posses the same virtues they always did. Rather it is a reflection of the fact that rifles netter serve the role of a patrol weapon for most people.

    A shotguns greatest virtue is that brings to bear unmatched power (compared to pistols, sub-guns, and intermediate caliber rifles.)

    Shotguns are still considered by many to be a superior choice for vehicle take downs. This is due to more reliable penetration/performance when passing through barriers like windshield glass. Advancements in barrier blind ammunition have made rifles do better than in the past but a slug or even a load of plated buckshot is still more reliable.

    Shotguns have been used for firing less lethal munitions. However, many agencies have designated less lethal guns. More and more are moving to 37 MM less lethal. Look at Dane Reister, a police officer in Portland, who was indicted for shooting a man with “lethal” rounds that he mistakenly loaded into a less lethal option. He was indicted, ultimately committed suicide and his agencies took heavy criticism for not have better policies to prevent that. They also paid out a multi million dollar settlement. It is hard to imagine any bureaucracy not have policy that only allows less lethal in designated less lethal guns. The 37 mm launchers not only avoid this issues they are generally considered more effective too.

    There is no “one true sword,” all weapons have strengths, weaknesses and are generally a set of trade offs. Shotguns have a number of limitations and drawbacks.

    Recoil: 12 gauge shotguns firing, even reduced recoil 2 ¾ slugs and buckshot, recoil significantly more than 5.56 weapons or sub-guns. I have heard many trainers opine that their observation has been that to truly effectively run a 12 gauge pump gun a person must be of a certain stature and strength. The shotgun is not an egalitarian weapon than anyone can easily wield.

    Training/manual of arms: In my experience shotguns, particularly if you are talking about the full breadth of what they can be used to do, take more training and more work to stay proficient. Training time and budgets are often limited. Moreover, it’s been my observation that many officers are not really gun guys and not interested in putting in more time or training that what is requisite. The manual of arms is more complex with a shotgun, and differs more from a pistol as well. Also there are many people familiar with the M16/M4 from prior military service.

    Ammunition capacity: Shotguns are limited capacity weapons. Also most officers who have a shotgun in their vehicle do not carry extra ammunition on their persons. Most with rifles do not carry additional rifle magazines. They often are grab and go weapons. Although incidents in which officers fire 20-30 rounds are, as near as I can tell, uncommon (there was a shootout a few years back in which about 250 rounds were fired in total by the police, the bad guy was shot twice. 17 of the suspects shots hit officers killing 1 and wounding a number of other), active shooter incidents and the like are not something I would want to run into with 6-8 shots in a shotgun.

    Precision: A rifle is simply a more precise weapon. We can imagine all kinds of hypothetical situations where that advantage might matter. This is particularly true as the distance increases.

    Ability to penetrate armor: The north Hollywood bank robbery and subsequent shootout in 1997 changed the calculus for many agencies. It occurred around the same time as the shootout with Carl Drega in Vermont. Another incident that changed how LEA equipped their officers. Drega was armed with a rifle and had body armor. Prior to being stopped with a rifle, he had taken a shotgun slug to his protected chest. This occurred in a rural area and drove home the idea that officers anywhere could face these types of scenarios and threats.

    Versatility: People often champion the shotgun for its versatility. It is true it can do a number of different things. However the same shotgun is often not used for those things. It can be used for breaching or less lethal munitions but those typically are dedicated guns. The patrol rifle offers great versatility. Unlike the shot just about anyone can shoot it and operate it will with training. One can zero the gun such that you are getting only a few inches high or low from 0-300 yards. Although there are still situations in which the shotgun shines, the rifle covers a broader range of scenarios.

    In summary, rifles, shotguns, and sub machine guns all have strengths, weaknesses, and present a different set for tradeoffs. There are still situation in which really dialed in users might still prefer shotguns, or subguns. I was speaking with dignitary protection guy not long ago about their selection and use of a particular subgun. That said rifles chambered for an intermediate cartridge have taken over many of the roles once dominated by either shotguns or submachine guns for a reason. That doesn’t mean the others couldn’t still be used effectively or don’t have strong points.
     
  11. Girodin

    Girodin Member

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    The calculation for HD is a bit different in my mind. Everyone’s home defense situation varies and thus so does the calculus. Unlike with the patrol rifle there is no consideration for what best most of the time for most users in the broadest range of situations. Rather the calculation is what is best for me in my situation. Some people want a gun that a 105 lbs family member can confidently and competently use. Other people live alone and only care what they can use well. Some live in palatial homes and others in tiny apartments. Some live in rural areas and others in densely populated one.

    Without going into great detail, I personally believe that shotguns remain much more viable for HD than they do as a general patrol weapon (and I mean HD not SHTF paramilitary scenarios). A shotgun can still be a very compelling choice for a short range gun fight where one wants a proven fight stopper. A shotgun is very compelling in a HD plan that involves calling 911 and covering a fatal funnel a few yards away.

    Each of the weapons below has strength and weaknesses. The reality those things could be debated until kingdom comes. In certain scenarios one might hold an advantage relative to another. That said I have training in using each of them and can do decent work with any of them. FWIW both ARs have a light like the one on the shotgun on the left side. Whether I personally want a rifle or a shotgun at the ready for HD often depends on which I have been spending the most time training with and where I am.
    FullSizeR (5).JPG
     
  12. Rexster

    Rexster Member

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    Regarding the felon taking a non-penetrating slug to his body armor, the body-armor factor is one reason I would be aiming buckshot (or slugs, if I elect to use them) at the face/neck/throat, or hip joints, of anyone I suspect of being armored-up. My Level III rifle plate, with IIIA soft armor underneath, will stop most .223/5.56 NATO, so a major concern, with incoming fire, is being hit above of below the armor. Local LEO Clint Greenwood, was, notably hit in the neck earlier this month, his persistent stalker/assassin presumably knew that the tactically-savvy lawman was wearing armor.

    The vehicle-penetration factor is a significant reason I use a shotgun with big, bold- squared-off sights, and keep Federal Truball Deep Penetrator Slugs either in the gun, or with me, preferably attached high on my uniform shirt or jacket.

    I am, of course, not against rifles. I like them, too.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  13. Kendal Black

    Kendal Black Member

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    Looking inside the gun shop bears out the OP's observation about the rifle's popularity. There are lots of AR type rifles on display. There are fewer home defense type shotguns and they are often placed toward the back of the showcase.

    The shotgun remains popular with me, and with people of like mind, never mind what the public thinks. The questions that the shotgun does a good job of answering seem to me to correspond to the most likely threat scenarios. Short range, poor light, target(s) in motion are more nearly the rules than the exceptions.
     
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  14. Crawdad1

    Crawdad1 Member

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    I couldn't agree more. My thoughts also.
     
  15. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

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    I think most people choose the firearm they are most likely to to train with. People who are active in shotgun sports or hunt with one will probably choose a shotgun. Someone who trains once a week with a pistol is likely to choose a pistol for HD. Same with rifle shooters. My preference these days is a carbine or pistol because that's what I train with these days. Years ago my safe was full of shotguns, I competed in the shotgun sports and hunted birds every fall. I know shotguns inside and out. I've had and used autoloaders, pumps, O/U's and SxS's, but never considered one for HD. Not that it would be a poor choice, I just felt a pistol or carbine would serve me better. I've only owned a carbine for about 5 years and now I understand why many people feel it's the single best solution to HD. One just needs to train with one to become convinced. The advantages are many and they have been cover quite well, no need to cover that again.

    I'm just wondering when firearms manufacturers will finally wake up to the fact there is a huge market out there for PCC's. Colt has a 9mm AR and they seem to be moving but 1K is pretty steep for an AR these days. I'm looking for Ruger or S&W to market one any day now.
     
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  16. bushmaster1313

    bushmaster1313 Member

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    All sorts of things can render an AR inoperable
    On the other hand, it would be a safe bet to wager that in the 83 years since 1934 this Remington 31 has never experienced a failure to feed, fire or eject:

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

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    Yeah, they're like revolvers in that respect. Always going to put a hole in something. :D
     
  18. Jason_W

    Jason_W Member

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    Shotguns are the only thing I've run under any kind of stress, and I've used them almost exclusively since I was 10. A pistol or carbine would be a fine HD choice, but I'm personally better with a shotgun. An 870 feels like an extension of my arms at this point.

    I do understand the reasons for the waning popularity of shotguns in military and leo circles, but most of those reasons don't really apply to me and my current situation.

    I'm also in California where semi-autos of all types are ultra restricted. 10 rounds of a pistol (the legal limit) or 6-8 rounds out of a 12 gauge have got to be pretty close performance wise.
     
  19. bushmaster1313

    bushmaster1313 Member

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    9CbiRXO.png

    Five rounds of Fiocchi 12 gauge reduced recoil 00 Buck (12LE00BK) at 6 yards:

    77qhnps.jpg
     
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  20. claiborne

    claiborne Member

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    I shied away from the 12 gauge after 20 years of hunting birds with one. I stopped chasing birds and started shooting clays about 10 years ago and switched to 20 gauge for less recoil, cheaper shells, lighter guns, blah blah blah. (its called easing into old age) I keep a 20 gauge light weight A-5 in the same corner I used to keep an 870 12 gauge.
     
  21. CaptTripps

    CaptTripps Member

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  22. Sav .250

    Sav .250 Member

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    Regular shotguns work for me.
     
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  23. RPZ

    RPZ Member

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    I think the rise of the AR, it's utility, loads and price/availability has had a lot to do with this.

    For many, especially females and those of weaker stature due to age or other conditions, a 12 gauge, even with moderated loads is a handful and hard to control in rapid fire. There is the 20 gauge which mediates this, however there is a limited selection of guns that can be termed combat shotgun. There are pumps and autoloaders that will certainly function in this role but there is a limited selection of loads. 16 gauge is really not far off a 12 in difficulty of control and suitable loads are hard to find.

    Then there is the range limitation with loads like 000 buck with the gaps in the pattern beyond a short yardage, and a trade off with loads like #4 buck in pellet weight and penetration if that option is used to improve pattern density at longer ranges.

    ARs are light - or rather can be, easy to control, and with better loads very effective at close range with the ability to reach out far beyond the effective practical range of a shotgun. The shotgun is a very effective short range weapon for those who can master it, unless it is loaded with slugs that are combined in a package that is acceptably accurate, and the issue of control for gentler folk is still an issue.
     
  24. ATN082268

    ATN082268 Member

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    Is a single 5.56mm round as effective as a single 12 Gauge Buckshot round at home defense distances?
     
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  25. RPZ

    RPZ Member

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    Not at across the room distances. At across the backyard distances maybe yes.

    How many single rounds are necessary to stop three, four .. five home invaders? At least "that many". How many females of average stature, or elderly people, can effectively shoot a 12 gauge faster and for the desired effect across a large room, down a hallway or staircase than an AR?
     
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