Compact .308, SBR or bullpup?

[Collector0311]

Want a compact .308 battle rifle and am open to suggestions. But wanted to pick brains about the pros/cons of bullpup shooting vs SBR's. For example a 12.5" PWS MK212 vs the Kel-Tec RFB (just examples) are you sacrificing significant range, accuracy, or muzzle velocity out of a short barrel? And does a bullpup design leave anything to be desired in accuracy out of the full 16in barrel length due to the majority of the barrel being encased in the body of the rifle? (speaking of barrel harmonics)

 

[MachIVshooter]

are you sacrificing significant range, [Strike]accuracy[/Strike], or muzzle velocity out of a short barrel?

With the .308, yes.

And does a bullpup design leave anything to be desired in accuracy out of the full 16in barrel length due to the majority of the barrel being encased in the body of the rifle? (speaking of barrel harmonics)

AFAIK, the RFB barrel is free floating.

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

guess I am an old soldier, carried the M14 in the day, ALL the bullpups I got no use for, dog ugly anyway...

 

[Collector0311]

I'd be interested to know if it is free floated and hear what kind of groups people are nailing down.

I'm a fan of the m14 as well Tex, also a Texan. However the idea of such a compact weapon offering the same barrel length as a standard battle rifle is hard to pass up. Looks be damned haha

 

[junyo]

And does a bullpup design leave anything to be desired in accuracy out of the full 16in barrel length due to the majority of the barrel being encased in the body of the rifle?

It's actually an 18" barrel. That's one of the advantages of a bullpup, a longer barrel in a still compact package.

FYI, the RFB seems to be averaging out as a 2-3 MOA platform, with a rate of twist that favors 168 grain bullets versus 150, but YMMV.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Bullpup -- Slower on weapons manipulation drills and workable but not brilliantly crisp trigger. On the other hand, you get better ballistics in the same package size.

308 SBR -- Quicker handling and (generally) better trigger. Tremendous blast and muzzle flash, from a heavy gun delivering not much more than AK 7.62x39 ballistic performance.

 

[Maverick223]

I love bullpups; they are a compact, efficient package that has few drawbacks (modern bullpups have largely remedied the former trigger problems as well as ambidexterity), though the ergonomics don't agree with everyone. I don't know about the Kel-Tec RFB, but i'd take it long before a SBR'd .308Winny. It's pretty high on my list...I have high hopes for it. I have a couple bullpup configuration rifles (one chambered for .223Rem./5.56NATO and another for .300WM) that have proven very accurate (though I have used others that didn't perform as well), so I am hoping that the KT will fall right in.

FWIW the RFB is not free-floated (at least not completely because it is short-stroke gas piston operated), but that doesn't really concern me, because neither is the Walther WA-2000 and it seems to do fine...same for my M17S (both utilizing a tensioned bbl design).

 

[Girodin]

The muzzle blast and fireball coming off of a SBR 308 is significant.

 

[TIMC]

I'd be interested to know if it is free floated and hear what kind of groups people are nailing down.

This is my sight in target at 100 yards after mounting a Leupold VX3 2.5-8x32mm scope. I was using hand loads with Hornady 168 grain BTHP bullets and IMR4895 powder.

I am satisfied with how it shoots and think I could do better with it when I can spend more range time with the RFB. When I sighted int in I found it a little difficult to get locked down good on the bench with this little rifle. I think with more time I can find a better/more comfortable shooting position and improve the grouping but she was good enough to take a small doe this last deer season with a 137 yard neck shot so I guess she can be called "Good enough".

 

[unwise11]

If you want a compact .308 get an AK of all things or an AR in .300 AAC, it loses so much energy and becomes a waste.

 

[henschman]

The beastly muzzle blast and flash of a SBR .308 can be tamed by a suppressor, but you still have pretty much 7.62x39 ballistics with the recoil of a .308. The worst of both worlds, with more expensive ammo, to boot. If you want that short of a barrel, you should probably go with a caliber that is better suited to that short of a barrel.

The Kel Tec RFB seems like a great idea, but I wouldn't trust it in the "battle rifle" role... it is too new and unproven. Even 18" is shorter than I like on a .308 battle rifle. I might pick up one of the 24" barreled versions when they come out.

Another option if you want a compact rifle with all the ballistics of a full length barrel, with a proven reliable design, is to get one of the M-14 bullpup kits from these guys and put a standard M1A in it (or a scout, if you're cool with an 18" barrel): http://www.shortrifles.com/

 

[Effigy]

308 SBR -- Quicker handling and (generally) better trigger. Tremendous blast and muzzle flash, from a heavy gun delivering not much more than AK 7.62x39 ballistic performance.

And the ammo is more expensive than an AK's. No point going less than 20" barrel on a .308 in my opinion.

 

[Ds1]

When considering you are looking for .308, I don't think an SBR would be a good choice considering the size of the round. Bullpups may be ugly at times, but some of the newer ones are definitely winners. I think most people are opposed to bullpups because its "too good to be true"

 

[Maverick223]

The Kel Tec RFB seems like a great idea, but I wouldn't trust it in the "battle rifle" role... it is too new and unproven. Even 18" is shorter than I like on a .308 battle rifle. I might pick up one of the 24" barreled versions when they come out.

I'm with you on the bbl length...my 5.56NATO/.223Rem. bullpup is 21.5in. so I'd prefer a bit more on the .308Win. Additionally I'd like to see what new chamberings they decide to add...i'm hoping for something like a 7mm-08Rem.; so waiting has a few advantages.

 

[Girodin]

If you want a compact .308 get an AK of all things or an AR in .300 AAC, it loses so much energy and becomes a waste.

And the ammo is more expensive than an AK's. No point going less than 20" barrel on a .308 in my opinion.

If you go really short perhaps, but my chrono indicates that a you can go notably shorter than 20" and still have a significant ballistic advantage over a x39. Even with an 11" barrel you can get 2400 FPS or so with 150 grains. A 7.62x39 out of an 11" barrel does around 2100 FPS with a 123 grain bullet.

If I wanted a really compact 308 I'd rather have a RFB than a 11" SBR. A 16" 308 notably outperforms a 16" x39.

 

[rcmodel]

The muzzle blast and fireball coming off of a SBR 308 is significant.

It is also very significant with a 16" or 18" .308 bull-pup muzzle a foot in front of your left ear!!

And your right ear laying on top of the ejection port.

rc

 

[Maverick223]

rc, that's true, but a 22-24in. bbl shouldn't be all that bad (a 26in. bbl'd bullpup chambered for .300WM isn't bad...so how bad could a little .308Win., with a couple inches lopped off, be?)...and wouldn't be a great deal longer (if any) than a SBR'd .308Win (about 30-32in. OAL).

 

[W L Johnson]

It is also very significant with a 16" or 18" .308 bull-pup muzzle a foot in front of your left ear!!

And your right ear laying on top of the ejection port.

The RFB's ejection port is to the front.

 

[Effigy]

Yeah, that's another point in favor of the RFB. It remains to be seem how reliable the forward ejection is, but I like it in theory. Should make collecting your brass easier too if you're so inclined.

 

[axeman_g]

I have to echo someone else post here... if you want that sort of maneuverability and retain some power look at a high end AK, maybe even the PTR 32. shortening the 7.62x51 under 18" really begins to hurt the rounds performance / accuracy.
If you are looking for portability, SAGE EBR, VLTOR or Troy folder with a 18.5" barrel.

How about a .500 or a .458 SOCOM?

 

[Maverick223]

It remains to be seem how reliable the forward ejection is, but I like it in theory.

The FN FS2k uses it and has proven reliable enough (which somehow they managed to make double the size of the RFB with the handling characteristics of a 4x4 post).

 

[HorseSoldier]

If you go really short perhaps, but my chrono indicates that a you can go notably shorter than 20" and still have a significant ballistic advantage over a x39. Even with an 11" barrel you can get 2400 FPS or so with 150 grains. A 7.62x39 out of an 11" barrel does around 2100 FPS with a 123 grain bullet.

A standard AK with full length barrel is only a couple inches longer than a DSA SBR with 11" barrel, and weighs over two pounds less than the SBR'ed FAL. For that (plus reduced magazine size and heavier recoil) you get 27 grains more bullet weight and . . . that's about it.

 

[dprice3844444]

with an sbr under 16 inches,you invite batfe into your world and you need written permission to go state to state.if you get tired of it,there's a 200 xfer fee plus the 200 incoming fee you paid

 

[MachIVshooter]

No point going less than 20" barrel on a .308 in my opinion.

You can still get good numbers out of a 16", especially if you handload. Out of my 16" Armalite AR-10A2 carbine, I was getting 2,610 FPS with 150 grain bullets (47.9 Grs. Win 748) and 2,480 with 162 gr. armor peircing surplus pills (43.1 grs. IMR 4895). That is still nearly 1,000 ft/lbs more energy than the 7.62x39. With 110 gr. V-max bullets over 48 grains of IMR-4895, I was averaging 2,880 FPS. Basically, you lose 150-200 FPS vs. a 20" tube

 

[Effigy]

.308 is still going to be decent in a 16" inch barrel, but I just think you lose too much for what you gain. If you want a short barrel I think it makes more sense to go with a smaller cartridge to save cost and recoil.