Would you buy a bullpup 9mm carbine?

[cluttonfred]

Just sounding out interest here...

How many would be interested in a Sten-like bullpup 9mm carbine?

• 16" barrel
• U.S.-legal overall length
• Tubular receiver
• Simple blow-back action
• Reliable safety
• Forward pistol-grip (likely a standard aftermarket AR-15 one)
• Simple slip on butt plate (or maybe an optional M4-type adjustable stock if receiver is the right size)
• Standard 10-round magazine (but also accepting a commonly-available high cap pistol magazine)
• Raised Picatinny rail on "carry handle" for optics
• Integral back-up sights
• Fully ambidextrous
• Might be top feed, bottom eject (like an Owen)
• or bottom feed, switchable ejection (like a FAMAS)
• or right ejection with generous deflector chute for the lefties

Here's a pic that I did for my Islander SMG concept thread, so you'll have to squint to imagine it as an evil black rifle (or print it on a black and white printer) with the carry handle optics mount, but you get the idea.

So, assuming it was decent quality and reliable, would you buy one of these for say, $300? (vs. a $200 Hi Point 9mm or a $450 Kel-Tec SUB-2000, for example)

 

[grimjaw]

Nope, I would not buy one. I'd rather spend the money to SBR my 9mm AR15.

jm

 

[Evil Monkey]

I've said it many times, the bullpup SMG that fires a common pistol munition doesn't make sense. There is no reason for it because the whole point of a bullpup was to take an assault rifle and make it compare to the size of most SMG's, while retaining the benefits that a RIFLE CARTRIDGE can provide.

Now personally, I wouldn't buy one. Reason is because I'd also rather have a more conventional SBR 9mm or .45 carbine because it's small enough and probably much less awkward to handle. That bullpup owen with the top feed just doesn't look comfortable at all.

 

[cluttonfred]

I hear you, Evil Monkey and grimjaw, but the idea was to put together a compact semi-auto carbine that doesn't require an SBR stamp. If you take SBRs out of the equation and add in various national and state assault weapons bans - past, present and, likely, future - the bullpup does start to look more interesting in providing a compact package without a folding stock.

I agree that the Owen layout may not be the best for a bullpup, I would definitely have to experiment to see if it would even be practical. The magazine might have to be canted away from the shooter, which complicates the ambidextrous factor. On the other hand, top feed might be a good thing for a bullpup so that you can see what you're doing when you change a magazine without removing the weapon from your shoulder.

Just playing with ideas here, thanks for your feedback.

 

[zxcvbob]

.30 Carbine is the right cartridge IMHO. They are small and light, and pack a harder punch than a 9mm +P or 7.62x25 (more comparable to a .357 Magnum)

 

[walking arsenal]

Ha

Wacky

Put the mag somewhere else and i'm game.

 

[cluttonfred]

Is this better, walking arsenal?

 

[kingjoey]

Owl, we're finishing up our 9mm bullpup currently. There are certain applications where the bullpup layout and pistol cartridge combination are optimal.

 

[pbhome71]

Owlnmole,

That thing looks ugly, yet very cool...

In this configuration, I see is that your face will be right next to the ejection port. Not sure if that will be good, or bad, yet.
It might ejects hot brass into your arm, or face, even when shooting from the hip.

-Pat

 

[Tarvis]

There are certain applications where the bullpup layout and pistol cartridge combination are optimal.

What applications are those?

 

[cluttonfred]

Got any pics, kingjoey?

 

[kingjoey]

What applications are those?

Motorcycle cops. Short OAL with a full-length barrel. Lot of depts looking for a rifle that can fit in the hard packs on a patrol motorcycle since they are often the first on the scene.

 

[kingjoey]

We're not releasing any pics yet, but here's the sketch from the CAD system. Pics will be out later this year

 

[cluttonfred]

I'd love to learn more about your project, kingjoey, but if that is the main criteria aren't there any number of folding-stock carbines that would work? The bullpup will have a shorter OAL in use, but the folding stock model can easily be shorter when stored. Look at the Kel-Tec SUB-2000s or SU-16s for that matter.

 

[foghornl]

I would not buy one of those....The "Bull Pup" configuration doesn't work for me. Interesting concept, though.

Hey your money. If it spins your fan, go for it.

 

[kingjoey]

Folding stocks add time to deployment and make the stored unit twice as thick. The civilian version pictured is 26.25" long and has a 21.5" barrel. The LE version will have a 16" barrel and be 20.75" long (and 1.25" wide). If you can make a rifle that will fit in a tighter compartment then more power to ya I'm not crazy about the bullpup layout either (especially since the concept is a hard sell here in the US) but after much debate and R&D we opted to go that route since we could get the dimensions really compact and the gun doesn't have to be "assembled" before being able to use it. Basically, this layout wouldn't take up much space in the hardpack and it has the carry handle at the top so deployment is as easy as opening the hardpack, pulling it out by the handle, and racking the bolt.

 

[cluttonfred]

zxcvbob, by the way, I did like the .30 carbine suggestion, but that might be a bit much for a straight blowback action.

 

[cluttonfred]

kingjoey, I really do wish you all the best with your project, but comparisons with the Kel Tecs are sure to be common:

SUB-2000 L 16" x W ~8" (don't know how thick)

SU-16B L 25" x W ~9" (don't know how thick)

That's without looking at the SU-16C that can be fired when folded or the SU-16D SBRs. How big are those motorcycle hard packs?

 

[PTK]

kingjoey

If that thing is 9mm and takes STEN mags, I want one. Where can I get in line?

 

[kingjoey]

If that thing is 9mm and takes STEN mags, I want one. Where can I get in line?

Hopefully they'll be available for civilian sales in early '09. We're finishing up the prototypes, then there is a going to be a small run of select-fire ones made for LE demo units for a couple of our LE dealers. After that we'll tool up and start regular production.

 

[kingjoey]

How big are those motorcycle hard packs?

The standard criteria is that the gun needs to be under 26" and preferably under 24". There really isn't much room to work with, even with the bullpup layout there still was a lot of tweaking that had to be done to make everything fit in those dimensions.

 

[PTK]

So they will use STEN magazines?

 

[kingjoey]

So they will use STEN magazines?

We will be able to make them for a couple different types of magazines, but yes, a modified STEN is one of the mags. Both of our prototypes are running a STEN mag milled to accept a reversed AR15 mag catch.

 

[PTK]

And that's where you lose me. I've been looking for a gun to use as-is STEN magazines.

 

[LiquidTension]

Holy crap that first pic is ugly!

The CAD drawing is pretty cool though. I wouldn't buy one as I already have a subgun and no real need for another one.