concealed carry gun grab defense

[checkmyswag]

I suppose that's where I prefer where the gun points in the 4 o'clock position. If God forbid...I did something stupid (yes I have a quality holster and know what I'm doing) and had a discharge...it wouldn't hit me. At 1 to 2 o'clock I'd be taking a round in the leg (at best). Suppose that weighs into the gun grab too though. If I was wrestling an attacker and the gun fired it would be into me if carried at 1 or 2 and probably not at 3 or 4.

 

[Comedian]

Exactly. There is no defense for a surprise attack, so it makes little difference where on your body you carry.

Wrong. There are several defenses against surprise attacks, starting with awareness and ending with retention and HtH techniques. Being surprised is not where the fight ends, and believing it is is a mindset problem.

Uh-huh. And I suppose you think that it makes it more difficult for a BG who knows where it's located to get if he wants?

Yeah, because it is. It's objectively more difficult for a bad guy to surprise you by either:
A. Reaching around your waist from behind to grab a gun that's placed at 1 o'clock
or
B. Go for your gun while standing directly in front of you

than it is for them to do the same when the gun is positioned at the small of the back. Simply knowing where a person carries a gun does not give the bad guy the power to instantly disarm said person. While I might indeed be at a disadvantage initially in a gun grab (regardless of position) I'm going to notice someone reaching for it before the task of disarming me actually takes place. And all it takes to retain in appendix carry is basically hunching over a bit to lower my ribs on top of the gun, effectively trapping it in the holster.

To the OP: I played with the idea of SOB carry when I first bought a gun (in fact the first holster I ordered was an SOB holster, but I changed it at the last second) but ultimately came to the conclusion that it has way too many drawbacks for little (if any, really) upside. It's an awkward position to draw from, you can't really use your support hand to clear your cover garment, basically can't draw if you're seated in a chair, and risk serious spinal injury if you fall on it. And for what?

 

[poolingmyignorance]

I'm going to have to disagree on this. The only defense is not to be caught off guard, because if the attack is truely surprise, and the attacker didn't botch it entierly, it WILL be sucessful. Being caught entierly offguard can equalize the most uneven of opponets. This is proven tactical technique that dates back as long as one animal has preyed on another. Period.
Let say for instance, your the hybrid child of bruce lee and chuck norris, mothered artifically through liam neilsen. your pretty much invincilbe, unless say I run you down with my truck while checking your mail one day. But you being so, knew to look both ways before stepping in the street. Problem solved.
My point is you don't spend 1,000 of hours practicing back fliping out of the way of woud be hit and runs motorist, when you can simply look before crossing the street. Now in todays urban enviroment, it's almost impossible to never give anybody a blind side at some point. You have to have some basics covered in angles of attacks. It's good to know your weapon retention techniques from diffrent postions, as anybody who's trained self defense can tell you that each technique is very specific for the situation perscribed.

 

[checkmyswag]

I agree small of the back is no good. But I'd call that 6. Not 4. My position is about 330/4. I don't have any issues drawing. Long arms maybe? Not a big deal.

Pretty wild how complicated concealed carry can be.

I finally found a comfortable set up. Plan on sticking with it. Just trying to always be prepared for whatever may come my way. The only alternatives I see are cross draw or pocket and those have too many downsides for me.

I'd really like to pocket carry with and empty chamber...but have listened to the advice that it would take to long to draw and chamber a round. So will be sticking with my current setup and continue to train and be aware of my surroundings.

 

[Comedian]

I'm going to have to disagree on this. The only defense is not to be caught off guard, because if the attack is truely surprise, and the attacker didn't botch it entierly, it WILL be sucessful. Being caught entierly offguard can equalize the most uneven of opponets. This is proven tactical technique that dates back as long as one animal has preyed on another. Period.

I'm not saying that being taken by surprise doesn't put the defender at an enormous disadvantage. It does, no argument. It is absolutely a proven and effective tactic for exactly that reason. However, that does not make it a foolproof and automatic method of winning every fight. Feel free to use it as an excuse to not bother preparing for it, I don't care. Unless you're killed or incapacitated in the initial "surprise" phase of the attack then the fight isn't over, and the other guy hasn't won yet. Period. Though if you think otherwise they'll probably win regardless.

Let say for instance, your the hybrid child of bruce lee and chuck norris, mothered artifically through liam neilsen. your pretty much invincilbe, unless say I run you down with my truck while checking your mail one day. But you being so, knew to look both ways before stepping in the street. Problem solved.

I'm the hybrid child of Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris and I can't see or hear you speeding down my street in a truck. Am I also deaf and..... You know what? I'm not going to argue hyperbole, especially when the analogy isn't even remotely equivalent to the subject matter, which is being gun grabbed.

Now in todays urban enviroment, it's almost impossible to never give anybody a blind side at some point. You have to have some basics covered in angles of attacks. It's good to know your weapon retention techniques from diffrent postions, as anybody who's trained self defense can tell you that each technique is very specific for the situation perscribed.

It is? You've just intimated that, if I'm surprised, it won't matter and I'll be instantly disarmed and disposed of by my attacker with no chance of resisting. If that's the case why should I bother learning retention techniques?

 

[poolingmyignorance]

"Being caught entierly offguard can equalize the most uneven of opponets"
This is because when two are evenly matched typically the one who makes the first mistake is going to loose. Now ofcourse that is not set in stone, but one should prepare as though it is.
And bare in mind that my hypothetical situation was to illustrate that there is always some degree of unsupected attack. And it's much easier to simply avoid a situation than it is to try and fight out of an impossible situation. I think when it comes to hand to hand people get a little lost on whats realistic. And this was my attempt at being humorus about that.
Now in a grappling situation there is always a back up to the back up to the back up. A set of human chess, but once caught your game is over.
What I'm getting at is it does no good to dwell on preparing for a sneak attack that can't be defened, such as one aimed at rendering you completely helpless. In such a case there is nothign you can do. I'm bringing this to point because offten when instruction particuarly in weapon disarms somebody would watch the technique demonstrated then think "I know how to defeat that".. which would typically be to pull the trigger sooner or immediately. Thus nulifing any atempt to remedy a situation.
Point is in self defense you can "what if" it to death, and lose focus on the orginal goal.
Gun gets grabed from this angle, this is your reaction. From another angle this is your reaction. And so on. Don't over think things that are beyond your control, thats all.
So I guess it's not a perfect way to phrase it, but that was how I was taught to explain it. "theres no defense to a sneak attack" Again this is the same thing, we can debate symantics all night when we really agree that training retention are necessary elements to sucssful carry. Maybe thats why I'm not an author.

 

[David E]

It's very well concealed. But I am concerned about the possibility of a gun grab from behind. I'm carrying in the 4 o'clock position.

They can't grab what they don't know is there. If you're really concerned, get a thumb real holster.

This concern almost has me interested in going back to cross draw.

Where it's easier for the badguy to see and grab?

 

[Losov]

There is no foolproof defense against a BG who knows you have a gun and wants it. The best strategy is to make sure he doesn't know you have it.

A mutt is not going to face off and slap you with a glove to challenge you to a duel. Most likely you'll simply wake up and your gun will be gone. If you wake up.

Yes, it's good to plan for a grab by an impulsive teenager, but a determined bad guy . . . . just keep it concealed.

 

[Comedian]

And bare in mind that my hypothetical situation was to illustrate that there is always some degree of unsupected attack. And it's much easier to simply avoid a situation than it is to try and fight out of an impossible situation.

Obviously it's easier to avoid a fight than it is to win one, doubly so when you're starting in a position of disadvantage. That's not the point of contention.

I think when it comes to hand to hand people get a little lost on whats realistic.

You seem to be among them. The notion that any attempted gun grab that takes someone by surprise will be successful is totally absurd. If that's the case we can tell police officers that all those hours spent on retention training were just a waste. Even the ones that have successfully used said techniques to defend against a surprise gun grab.

What I'm getting at is it does no good to dwell on preparing for a sneak attack that can't be defened, such as one aimed at rendering you completely helpless. In such a case there is nothign you can do.

Yeah, but that's not what the thread is about, nor my post, which concerns those sneak attacks that don't leave you dead or incapacitated after the initial onslaught. No one's asking for "martial arts defense for being shot in the back of the head from 10ft away".

Point is in self defense you can "what if" it to death, and lose focus on the orginal goal.

I don't know where this came from, I haven't "what if"ed anything in this thread.

So I guess it's not a perfect way to phrase it, but that was how I was taught to explain it. "theres no defense to a sneak attack" Again this is the same thing, we can debate symantics all night when we really agree that training retention are necessary elements to sucssful carry. Maybe thats why I'm not an author.

We aren't arguing semantics, you're saying something that doesn't mean what you think it means. I think what you're trying to get across is that there is no foolproof, 100% reliable method of surviving an attack that takes you by surprise which, though I agree, differs significantly in meaning from

because if the attack is truely surprise, and the attacker didn't botch it entierly, it WILL be sucessful.

which, in the context of this thread, implies that any gun grab will be successful. Forget retention and hand to hand techniques, if you look over and someone is grabbing for your belt line, it's over.

A mutt is not going to face off and slap you with a glove to challenge you to a duel. Most likely you'll simply wake up and your gun will be gone. If you wake up.

So the scenario has changed from "someone grabs for your gun" to "someone grabs for your gun while you sleep"? k...

Yes, it's good to plan for a grab by an impulsive teenager, but a determined bad guy . . . . just keep it concealed.

Isn't planning for one, in effect, planning for both? Maybe I've got this wrong, but handgun retention training doesn't take into account who is trying to grab your gun or their relative level of determination, just that someone is trying to grab your gun. Again, it's possible to defend against a determined attacker, even if it isn't totally ideal.

 

[poolingmyignorance]

Okay. Honesty I'm sorry you don't understand, what I'm trying to convey. I not sorry that I' dont care that you don't understant. I've used this explanation in a gym/class room setting countless times, over the 4 years that I personally taught brazilain jiu jitsu. It was taught to me to explain this way by somebody who's been training longer than I've been alive. He's explained it this way to thousands of student, and I've explained it this way to not quiet as many but still alot. So yea.. ... have fun.

 

[Creature]

 

[StephanFowler]

a good friend of mine was shot in the line of duty.

his partner got into a physical situation detaining a 120LB girl (high as a kite at the time)
she somehow worked her hand into the holster with the gun and managed to pull the trigger.

the gun never left the holster.



Awareness trumps all other concerns.

 

[Comedian]

Okay. Honesty I'm sorry you don't understand, what I'm trying to convey. I not sorry that I' dont care that you don't understant.

I'm sorry that your point was lost due to the poor way in which it was phrased.

 

[Sam1911]

Gettin' stupidur all the time...