Concealing NFA items in Colorado?

[PTK]

Yes, I know it's a "bad" idea legally, I'm curious if it's legal.

18-12-101. Definitions

(e.5) "Handgun" means a pistol, revolver, or other firearm of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which any shot, bullet, or other missile can be discharged, the length of the barrel of which, not including any revolving, detachable, or magazine breech, does not exceed twelve inches.

(c) "Firearm silencer" means any instrument, attachment, weapon, or appliance for causing the firing of any gun, revolver, pistol, or other firearm to be silent or intended to lessen or muffle the noise of the firing of any such weapon.

(h) "Short rifle" means a rifle having a barrel less than sixteen inches long or an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

(i) "Short shotgun" means a shotgun having a barrel or barrels less than eighteen inches long or an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

18-12-102. Possessing a dangerous or illegal weapon - affirmative defense.

(1) As used in this section, the term "dangerous weapon" means a firearm silencer, machine gun, short shotgun, short rifle, or ballistic knife.

(5) It shall be an affirmative defense to the charge of possessing a dangerous weapon, or to the charge of possessing an illegal weapon, that the person so accused was a peace officer or member of the armed forces of the United States or Colorado national guard acting in the lawful discharge of his duties, or that said person has a valid permit and license for possession of such weapon.

18-12-202. Definitions.

(4) "Handgun" means a handgun as defined in section 18-12-101 (1) (e.5); except that the term does not include a machine gun as defined in section 18-12-101 (1) (g).

From my reading of that, I can carry a SBR, SBS, or AOW concealed on my permit as long as the barrel is 12" or less and it's legally registered. What say you?

The statutes can be found here.

 

[Erik]

The link you privided clearly indicates Colorado's statutes allow for the carrying of concealed handguns; I noticed no other refrences.

Ergo, concealing NFA weapons appears to be illegal.

 

[PTK]

I understand that much, and they define handguns in a way that includes my NFA items. My concern is that it would somehow be prohibited to carry, say, my SBS 12ga with 8" barrels.

 

[Erik]

I edited to add the last sentence while you where apparently typing.

"Possessing" your NFA shotgun is OK, assuming you are legally entitled to.
"Concealing" same shotgun is not OK, regardless of whether you are entitled to possess it or not.

I'd certainly be interested in infomration to the contrary; LEO/gov't exeptions not included.

 

[PTK]

They freely defined handgun to include "other firearm of any description ... the length of the barrel of which ... does not exceed twelve inches", which includes many SBS, SBR, and AOW firearms.

See my confusion?

 

[schloe]

The colorado ccw license only applies to HANDGUNS. I think your nfa weapons fall under (h) and (i) in 18-12-101, not under (e.5) even though they technically meet the guideline. I'm guessing that because an sbs is still a shotgun, not a handgun, you can't conceal it. An sbr is still a rifle, not a handgun, so you can't conceal it.

 

[wdlsguy]

A Serbu Super Shorty, being a smooth bore pistol, would appear to meet Colorado's definition of "handgun".

 

[LawBot5000]

Listing machine guns as being excepted from the definition of handgun shows that the legislature was aware that items not typically thought of as handguns nonetheless fit their referenced legal definition.

Listing only machine guns but not other weapons that fall under their statutory definition of "handgun" shows that under the principle of expressio unius est exclusio alterius they did not wish to exclude items not listed with "machine guns."

So yes, AOWs and SBSes are allowed, it would seem.

And no, this isn't legal advice. I suggest you consult an attorney in your area to avoid legal problems. Winning at the appellate level is expensive business.

 

[PTK]

Okay, so I'm not alone in thinking it's as clear as mud. Would contacting the DA/AG/whatever be wise, or should I simply ask a firearms lawyer here in Colorado?

 

[LawBot5000]

Ask a lawyer. My hunch is that a cop that catches you with a sawed off shotgun is going to confiscate it and arrest you first and ask questions later. Regardless of jurisdiction.

They will probably assume you are up to no good because most people they know don't carry sawed off shotguns as concealed carry arms. Now, you may be able to talk your way out of being in trouble, but I would personally not risk it with a 1200+ dollar plus shotgun that I had to pay a 200 dollar tax and wait 1-2 months for.

A lot of it will come down to circumstances. If you look like a hobo, expect a lot less understanding than if you are a well groomed and expensively dressed doctor or lawyer. I will let you guess as to which one is considered dangerously abberant and which one is considered merely eccentric.

 

[Erik]

"Okay, so I'm not alone in thinking it's as clear as mud. Would contacting the DA/AG/whatever be wise, or should I simply ask a firearms lawyer here in Colorado?"

I'd consult a lawyer. Please update us with your findings.

 

[Crunker1337]

Ask a lawyer, and if it's legal... do it.

 

[testify4]

From what I understand, schloe's assessment is correct. A Colorado CCW only allows the concealed carry of handguns.

I recently watched a discussion with a firearm lawyer explaining why you cannot carry a concealed knife with a blade over 3.5" if you have a Colorado CCW. He had the statues handy and determined that even though it is a "Concealed Weapons" permit, it applied to handguns only.

 

[Prince Yamato]

A Serbu Super Shorty, being a smooth bore pistol, would appear to meet Colorado's definition of "handgun"

Believe it or not, the Serbu is considered a pistol in NYS and if you can get a CLEO to sign off on the AOW (which IS legal in NYS) *and* get it listed unrestricted on your carry permit, you CAN in fact carry a Serbu Super Shorty as your CCW in NYS. So, I don't see why this isn't possible in Colorado, if it meets the definition of pistol.

 

[PTK]

it applied to handguns only.

Right, but look at 18-12-101. Definitions (e.5). That covers a lot more than just ordinary pistols.

 

[O C]

Colo CCW

My CCW card states that it is a " Concealed HANDGUN Permit " Don't think I'd push the issue. The DA will win even if you do.

 

[PTK]

O C

Look how Colorado law defines handgun. 18-12-101. Definitions (e.5).

 

[buttrap]

I think you are missing a few other statuates they list in other areas...that means a handgun not a short barreled shotgun or subgun. If you have a pistol version of a AR that would fit not somthing that is considered to not be a pistol under fed laws.

 

[PTK]

buttrap

For the purposes of carry, it seems Colorado law states a handgun is

a pistol, revolver, or other firearm of any description ... the length of the barrel of which ... does not exceed twelve inches ... except that the term does not include a machine gun as defined in section 18-12-101 (1) (g).

That, to me, covers a whole lot more than just ordinary pistols. Especially once they threw in the part about "except for machine guns"

 

[aloharover]

Talking to a lawyer is a good idea, but remember they are the ones defending you not enforcing the law. I would think talking to the DA would be the better route to go. If he says "no we would not press charges" thats better then a defense lawyer IMHO. get it in writing.

 

[Pat-inCO]

What say you?

Why would you bother?

 

[PTK]

Pat-inCO

Because this is America, perhaps?

 

[coloradokevin]

Interesting question... As a CO LEO, I can't honestly tell you whether or not a blanket go/no-go answer is available for this question. This is the kind of imprecise statutory language that annoys me! The ambiguous part about this statute is that (in some ways) a SBR and SBS appear to also be defined as handguns.

So, yes, the SBR's and SBS's would theoretically fit under the definition of a handgun by 18-12-101 (e.5). In pure description, they obviously work as a handgun.

However, SBS's and SBR's are separately described in subsections (h) and (i). They wouldn't be a handgun, simply because they are further described/defined as something entirely different (within the same statute).

As such, I would probably argue that such a weapon would be illegal under concealed carry in CO.

In other words, it may fit the basic description of a handgun, but it IS considered a SBR or SBS per statutory definition (not a handgun). And, the mere fact that you have an NFA stamp that labels such a firearm by one of these two definitions would, in my opinion, legally support the fact that the firearm in question is defined by either paragraph (h) or (i), but not (e.5).

Having said all of that, if the carrier of said weapon had a valid CCW permit, I wouldn't hassle them (provided the SBS/SBR was legal). This is one of those situations where LEO discretion is probably going to be the determining factor, at least on the street (court battles are another subject entirely). I don't get to hung up on these kind of semantics, but that doesn't mean that other LEO's won't. Like anywhere else in life, there are plenty of pro-gun officers, plenty of anti-gun officers, and a whole bunch of guys who could give a crap less about the subject!

In short, I think you could make an argument for this being legal, but I think the DA could make an argument for this being illegal. Probably not a risk I'd like to take, personally.



NOTE:

THE ABOVE-LISTED RESPONSE DOES NOT REPRESENT LEGAL ADVICE. THE OPINION(S) EXPRESSED IN THIS POST ARE SOLEY THAT OF "COLORADOKEVIN", AND DO NOT REPRESENT THOSE OF MY DEPARTMENT, THE STATE OF COLORADO, OR ANY OTHER ASPECT OF OUR LEGAL SYSTEM.

PLEASE CONSULT A QUALIFIED ATTORNEY BEFORE MAKING POTENTIALLY LIFE-CHANGING DECISIONS BASED ON MY OPINIONS!

 

[PTK]

coloradokevin

That was fairly much what I thought until I saw 18-12-202. Definitions.

(4) "Handgun" means a handgun as defined in section 18-12-101 (1) (e.5); except that the term does not include a machine gun as defined in section 18-12-101 (1) (g).

This confuses me, as they say a handgun includes the definition of 18-12-101 (1) (e.5), but not a machine gun. It doesn't say anything either way about SBRs, SBSs, AOWs, or silencers.

 

[Pat-inCO]

Because this is America, perhaps?

In other words, "Let's see if I can I get away with it?"

Humm, take something (a handgun) that is inherently uncomfortable and anything but easy to conceal and double the length and add to the width, just to see if you can get away with it?

It seems obvious that some of the intent in this thread is to see what "stuff" can be stirred up rather than discussing practical applications and solutions. HEY, have fun.