Consensus on the "most stout" 10mm handgun

[surfinUSA]

I've got a G20. I'm not the only person that thinks its the best 10mm on the market. It was designed for the 10mm and will handle any 10mm out there just fine. I got mine as a woods gun. It excells in that capacity. Its accurate, reliable, light, powerful with a large capacity magazine which by the way are dirt cheap and readily available and its impervious to the elements and simple to detail strip.

I won't claim that its equal to a 41 mag because for the most part it isn't. Its more powerful (with the right loads) than a 357 and its better or equal to some of the lighter 41s. It is however, up to whatever two or four legged task it may be called upon to handle 95% of the time. Keep in mind as a kid I and many others walked the woods with a 22 rifle, never worried about a bear and still don't (the heaviest handgun I own is a 44 mag That is as big as i can shoot rapidly and accurately).

 

[jimmy]

I have a G20 and a G29 and see no reason why either should ever fail in normal use. (Admittedly, I did have a quality problem with the G29, but Glock replaced the entire gun and the new one runs fine.)

 

[Beagle-zebub]

One thing to consider is that while the Dan Wesson RZ-10 weighs 38 ounces unloaded, the Glock weighs just shy of 28 ounces unloaded, and 39 ounces with a full mag (according to them). Since the last couple shots on any mag are going to be from an essentially unloaded weapon, prepare to fire those hot loads from a 28 ouncer--that sounds like it's downright not fun.

Then again, though, there are obviously some folks here who are doing it.

 

[Kitt]

I own a Glock 20 and a Glock 29...I also have a Dan Wesson Razorback and a C-Bob in 10mm and they all shoot well. BUT my all time favorite is my Para Ordnance P-16 "Un-Limited" 10mm...this is a 16 + 1 rds, 1911 style pistol that will do it all.

 

[SouthpawShootr]

......BUT my all time favorite is my Para Ordnance P-16 "Un-Limited" 10mm...this is a 16 + 1 rds, 1911 style pistol that will do it all.

There's a P-16 that's been languishing in the case at a local shop for well over 2 years now. I'm thinking I might do a conversion on this.

 

[paddling_man]

First hand EAA experience:

The one I didn't trust? An EAA Witness 10mm steel Wonderfinish. A gun I WANTED to love badly. Absolutely beautiful with great ergos. I spent probably as much in ammo as the original gun price, trying to get it to feed, and often extract, reliably. New mag springs, followers, mags, recoil springs, extractor, etc. Buy more parts. Wait. Install. $hoot more. Failure. I finally got it to feed/extract reliably, with all but a couple of brands of ammo, but traded it - I couldn't get over my initial lack of trust and dealing with EAAs smith was like talking to the two old grouches from the balcony on the Muppet Show.

Use of anything other than "factory ammo," of which Buffalo Bore and Doubletap were excluded, is voiding the warranty and the "cause of all woes" per EAA and their smith.

I know this isn't grounded in reason, but my Witness experience is the only thing that gave me pause in buying a used CZ75BD today (that, and at 389, I think it was a little too high.) I know the only thing they have in common is the CZ style platform but bad memories are hard to shake. I do think I'll get past that in the future because the CZ frame feels so good in my hand. It won't, however, be an EAA import. I think I'll stick with a real CZ or an Armalite.


This part is secondhand: I've heard a reports of frames cracking on the 10mm Witness.

 

[MachIVshooter]

The S&W 10xx series are second to none. I have pounded mine with loads pushing 180 grain pills at over 1400 FPS for years with no ill effects.

the S&W 1006 are built like tanks. Its brother the S&W 4506 in 45 Acp has an identical frame - just a different caliber

The frame is milled down quite a bit on the 4506. The slide is thinner and lighter, too. You can't see too much detail in this photo, but the 1006 and 4506 are on top. You can see where the front portion of the frame is milled down on the 4506. The slide is about 1/8" narrower, easily visible from the rear.

 

[Snowdog]

MachIVshooter,
That's a beautiful family photo! Besides being aesthetically pleasing, it really shows the difference in size between the 1006/4506 and the compact models. They certainly do look tough-as-nails.

Paddling_man,

I had the exact experience with an EAA Witness Compact with Wonder finish in .40 S&W.
I loved the looks and the ergonomics, but for the life of me I couldn't get it to feed more than 5 consecutive rounds. It went back to EAA shops 3 times and each time came back with some type of alteration (new recoil spring, magazine catch, polished feed ramp, etc) and the same BS note reading "Test Fired: OK". I believe I chronicled the whole tomfoolery either here or on TFL back a few years ago. It was a shame as it fit me so well and seemed stout and accurate. It certainly was the (lack of) costumer service that ruined my faith in them. Your humorous description of them as the grouches on The Muppet Show is spot on!

 

[p85]

Paddling Man: Sorry to hear you had such a bad experience with the witness pistol. My experience is exactly the opposite. I have fired about 1500 rounds thru mine (mostly 180 grain rnl) and can say that I have yet to have it fail to feed or eject. Knowing that the pistol is undersprung from the factory, I purchased a 20# recoil spring from Wolf. This should add to the life of the pistol by slowing the speed of the slide, reducing slamming. I am very pleased with mine.

 

[Mortech]

OK I just posting to show off the '10MM Twins' along with 'Jr' who's doing duty as my summer CCW since I bought a new digital camera last night (after reading about them on another thread on this forum ) .

 

[wally]

I had the exact experience with an EAA Witness Compact with Wonder finish in .40 S&W.
I loved the looks and the ergonomics, but for the life of me I couldn't get it to feed more than 5 consecutive rounds. It went back to EAA shops 3 times and each time came back with some type of alteration (new recoil spring, magazine catch, polished feed ramp, etc) and the same BS note reading "Test Fired: OK". I believe I chronicled the whole tomfoolery either here or on TFL back a few years ago. It was a shame as it fit me so well and seemed stout and accurate. It certainly was the (lack of) costumer service that ruined my faith in them. Your humorous description of them as the grouches on The Muppet Show is spot on!

Matches my experience with the Witness P Compact in .40S&W. They shouldn't sell these, period. They use the same mags as the 10mm and the mags can't control the shorter round causing the problems. Mine is good for 5 or 6 shots with the 10 round mag or 10 0r 11 with the longer full sized 10mm mags. I've tried the +10% extra power spring from Wolff and 20 and 22 lb recoil springs nothing really helps.

Jury is still out on my full sized 10mm EAA steel frame pistol as I've not shot it enough yet. Have had a few failures to feed but these were where the round nose dived with the 22lb spring and factory magazine spring. I need to try a 20 lb spring in it and put in the extra power mag springs.

If you have any expectation of help from EAA the "Warning Notice" insert that came in the package of each of the extra mags I've bought (from Reed's) should give you pause: "This product is sold "as is" and "with all faults". The entire risk as to the quality and performance of the product is with the buyer."

If you get good mags they are good guns, but I can't recommend any company that fails to stand by its product with such a disclaimer!

My EAA Wintness P in .45ACP works fine but then I use Mec-Gar mags in it.

--wally.

 

[jfh]

EAA Witness with both .45 ACP and 10mm top ends.

I bought this SS .45ACP version early in the 90s, I think. I added an adjustable sight in order to get the POA above 6"-8" down at 50'. Shot it some; worked fine, save for that POA issue. Looking over the gun closely showed that the muzzle was about 1-2 degrees lower than the breech, and it was designed that way.

This Spring I got a 10mm bug again and ordered out a top end from EAA and three additional mags. Arrived promptly; it's the 'Wonder finish,' and the quality of finish work is not as good as the .45 ACP slide. But, the slide fit up ok, and I ordered another adjustable sight. Got one in from Brownells; put it in late last week. Examination of this barrel and slide design showed the muzzle lower, but the breech slide cut did seem to be parallel to the slide axis. The front sight on the .45 slide is a dovetail; the 10mm slide has a cast-in-place ramp with a hole for paint or a night sight.

I headed to the range with some of my old loads--175 gr LSWCs, 5.1 gr of 231. I tested all four mags--no magazine or gun malfunctions in 120 rounds. The mags are hard to get all 15 rounds into--but they fed perfectly.

And, interestingly enough, the POA is about 4" HIGH--even with the adjustable sight cranked all the way down. (Both slides' sights are just the standard dovetail sights by PSI, no cutting to recess.)

Groups were not particularly good, but now I'll go to work on some load development and see what it can do after I shoot a few hundred rounds of FMJs to burnish the barrel.

I couldn't be happier, given a barrel and slide cost of $229.00--the factory mags were 3/$75.00.

Jim H.

 

[McCall911]

Not a Witness fan either...

I had one of the first .45 Witnesses and had constant jams, as well as a catastrophic failure where the mag disassembled itself while I was shooting!
I ordered two other magazines and had the same constant jams with both.

A few years earlier, I owned another Tanfoglio product, a similar FIE TZ-75 (?)in .41 Action Express and had the exact same problems. I truly wanted to like that pistol, but it just wouldn't let me!

So no more Tanfoglio products for me, thank you!


(Ironic that my 1000th post is a repeat of one of my first, IIRC!)

 

[Cocked & Locked]

Glock 20 works for me. Pic shows Double Tap 180 grain Gold Dots in the magazine. Since taking this picture, I've replaced the factory sights with Meprolight Night Sights...like it even better now.

 

[ChrisMG]

Uhh you guys aren't making me too ambitious about buying an EAA Witness Match in 10MM. I've been seriously contemplating it not if it's going to crap out on me.

 

[gandog56]

If you mean still produced models, I would put my Dan Wesson Razorback over any other one listed.

 

[1man]

1 more vote for Witness pistol. I have a Witness Elite Stock and it is built like a tank, all I shoot out of it is full-power loads(DT). I once had a S&W 1006 until I got my Wit. Elite(didn't really need it any more plus I love the "1911 style" safeties more than the "sweep-up style" that you find on Smiths & Berettas). The 1006 was a strong built gun but I believe the Witness was built stronger(I know my gunsmith had a hard time trying to mill the slide fit a new front sight because the metal was so hard), not to mention that the bore axis is lower on the Witness than the Smith making the Witness a recover faster between shots.

 

[jfh]

In addition to the EAA Witness 10 package, I also

have an S&W 1006 that's languished in the safe for perhaps a decade. About the time my shooting interests changed, that gun had gotten a defective action job, and since I was more interested in shooting 1911s (or 1911-types, as the Witness / CZ-75 design is, at least for ergonomics) I simply set it aside.

However, my recollection is that it really is the stoutest 10mm I've shot--I also have a Springfield Armory Omega in 10, and I think the 1006 is stronger than either the Witness or the SA Omega. However, one has to really like S&W ergonomics, I think--or simply familiarize themselves thoroughly.

I'm gonna get the 1006 running again--have my current 'smith re-do the action job. I have 1000s of 10mm components to shoot--and it is a fun cartridge to shoot, even if one doesn't shoot the max load rounds. I do remember that I ran max reloads through both the SA Omega and the S&W 1006, and the 1006 digested them a bit better than the Omega.

I also had a Glock 20--one of the first--and it blew up after 300 rounds. That soured me on Glocks and plastic guns in general, so I'll stay with steel.

My current 'smith finds no fault with the metallurgy of the EAA Witness guns, so I think the issues here are really just the QC practices of EAA. Obviously, based on the posts here, that's a mixed lot.

Jim H.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Was the Desert Eagle ever marketed in 10mm. I bet it's the 'stoutist'!

 

[McCall911]

Was the Desert Eagle ever marketed in 10mm. I bet it's the 'stoutist'!

No, but LAR Grizzly was, or is, unless someone has already mentioned it.
(I'm too lazy to look back. )

 

[Mike U.]

Well, this has been an eye-opening thread and I'm glad I read it. What are the going rates on the S&W 1006's?

I was looking at both the Glock 20 and the all-steel EAA Witness. You guys may have saved me serious heartache. Thank you!

 

[paddling_man]

P85 - I can't tell you how much I wish my experience had been like yours. It is (was) a beautiful gun and fit me sooo well. When this, what seemed at times like single-shot pistol with extra rounds stored in the grip, actually did feed a few rounds, it was great! Quick to return to target. Low and very manageable recoil. Just a great design in an auto 10mm!

Unfortunately, I think the case goes that if you get a good one, you're golden. If you don't, you're screwed. I don't mind taking a chance on an inexpensive handgun - heck, I've even got a KelTec P11 in my stable! - but, it had better have a competent, gracious factory support and warranty. EAA doesn't even come close to that.

If you reload 10mm and want to tinker, I think it is a safe bet. If you're expecting more, there is too great a risk of di$appointment.

A 10mm, due to ammo cost, would never be a range plinker for me - simply too expensive to shoot lots of lead downrange for fun. For that, I'll stick with .45, 9mm, 38 (or heck, .22LR) rounds. I had planned to shoot it enough to maintain confidence and muscle memory. I bought a 10mm for the hardhitting nature of the 10mm and wanted to use it as a 2 or 4 legged woods gun. Due to the long term reliability concerns, even after I finally got it to feed a few brands somewhat reliably, I've come to the conclusion that I'll stick to one of my revolvers for a woods gun or go for a G20 if I run down the 10mm road again. I've never been able to get my G30 to jam.

Lovely, but she was a heartbreaker.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Uhh you guys aren't making me too ambitious about buying an EAA Witness Match in 10MM. I've been seriously contemplating it not if it's going to crap out on me.

While I maintain that the 1006 is the strongest, I like my Witness' too. I have a both the Limited and compact models in 10mm. Both required beveling the bottom of the extractor and incresed power Wolff mag springs to feed reliably, but have run fine with those modifications. The compact has stood up to the beating of nuclear loads for some time now with no ill effects (180 grainers clocking 1343 from the 3.5" tube). I don't have that many rounds through the Limited yet, but it seems to be doing fine. IT is a very nice shooting pistol, with probably the best factory trigger I've ever had on any gun.

 

[McCall911]

And so I wonder...

When is CZ going to offer a 10mm in the style of the CZ-97?
We're still waiting!

 

[wally]

When is CZ going to offer a 10mm in the style of the CZ-97?

Not a priority for me. I really like my CZ75B but was disappointed in the CZ97, never could learn to like the feel of it in my hand, like the Glock 21 its just a bit too big for me, its why I tried the CZ75-like Witness which fit my hand a whole lot better.

--wally.