Cops and attitude Problems...

[Mad Man]

put his hand on his gun and said,

From who's perspective? What else does he keep back there? OC Spray? Handcuffs? What else was said by the "tester" to the officer to get him so angry? You will never convince me that an officer was going to shoot someone because the person was asking questions about complaint forms. If the officer was making threats to the "tester," then there's obviously much more to the story than we're being told.

If a civilian makes a similar movement during a heated exchange with a police officer, is the police officer justified in using deadly force?


UPDATE: The answer is "yes."

Instead of reaching for something that looks like a gun (say, a Taser), imagine the civilian was reaching for his wallet, a soda can, etc.

The officer would have every right to feel threatened and ventilate the civilian.

Civilians, on the other hand, have no right to construe such a movement by a peace officer as a threat.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

“Your job is to explain how you take the complaint and make no judgement, even though you may say, this person looks like they just dropped in from Mars”, said Timoney, “That's not your job.”

See good cops do exist. The cops who went for their gun need to be fired.

There is no question that the video exposes a lot of jack booted thuggery. On the other hand, this Timoney guy states that the job of the officer is to explain how to make the complaint. I concede that it must be more than a little frustrating if the policy at your department is that the complainant has to speak with a supervisor, or perhaps in internal affairs officer, and those people aren't on duty in the station at 8:00 p.m. But when you try to explain the procedure, the phony complainant just keeps reciting his mantra about just wanting a form.

But ... as idiotically as the plant played it, the behavior of many of the officers was definitely over the top.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Yes, there are different rules.

LEOs are held to a higher standard.

It's something civilians like us just can't comprehend. That's why if there's an attitude problem in a LEO/civilian interatction, it's the civilian's fault.



When and where did this take place? Case number? Name of the officer? These should be a matter of public record. Without such information, I have to file this away as another internet legend.

I believe the case was continued 3 times due to his failure to appear.
1986, officer Kelvin Reagan, Gaston County North Carolina. Complainant's name was David White. I don't have a case number since It's been a while.
The records are all there and are public.
Officer Reagan made sure to make my life hard when I was in High School since I was related to the guy who took him to court.
Of course, if you look into the Rutherford county records, you'll see where I was cited for failure to appear when I was in college. I was cited for an expired license, jumbled up the dates, failed to appear, showed up a week late, and BAM! I had a warrant out for my arrest. The very minute my name was called and I wasn't there, I might add.
On the positive side, I had a very nice experience with an officer in Lake Lure NC who wrote me the ticket and didn't take me to jail, but could have.

Back to the subject:
I think there are problems with the system. Complaint registration is one of them. Citizens, by and large, are afraid of the Fraternal Brotherhood and what it affords the Bad Cops. We're not afraid of the good ones. Those are the ones who fistfight, shoot, beat, and chase their way through their profession on a regular basis and still manage to be nice to all the other good people.
Many of the ex-cops I know from shooting and others hobbies I have say they came to think of everyone as a dirtbag. It seems that the reverse can be true as well.
We're imperfect people working with an imperfect system. It seems that the whole subtext of this thread is "how do I deal with a bad cop?" since it may be problematic to register a complaint with a fraternal brother of the person with whom you have a problem.
I can't say that I feel any different.
I've had a State Trooper hit me with his shoulder on the way out of a restaurant and when I didn't budge (I work out a lot and played rugby in college. you don't move me with your shoulder. doesn't matter how "boot camp" your haircut is.) he walked the opposite way from his cruiser, found my car, circled my car, and found my inspection sticker out of date and cited me for it. I'd been working out of state and had just returned. He didn't care, but did grin at me like the cat that ate the canary while he wrote the citation. Cost me 150 bucks, I think. The DA wasn't interested in my complaints. Neither was his commander. The owner of the restaurant gave me free lunch and apologized for the trooper.
I have had weapons drawn on me by campus police for taking a step closer to hear what they were saying.
Once, the power steering pump hose on my car burst and smoke started pouring from underhood. I started to jump out and put the flames out, but the officer drew his weapon and ordered me to stay in my car. "I don't care about your car." he said. So, instead of a 20 dollar hose, I got to do a couple of hundred bucks worth of repairs. Nice for a college kid with not much money.
But, now that I have a BMW motorcycle, short hair, and don't powerlift anymore, I guess I fit the OK profile.
As someone who shoots with, does busines with, and has family members that are cops, I don't bring these things up lightly. There are serious problems with the complaint system.
This is not cop bashing. It's us hashing out a problem with a system that needs correction or guidance to say the least.

 

[rmgill]

I'm a might bit disturbed by the attitude of the officers on this thread. They seem to act as if there is no such thing as a bad police officer, only misunderstandings.

Gun-shot wounds and deaths can result from misunderstandings between regular people and between citizens and people who happen to be cops. And it can be the Cop's fault as it was on 12/7/1995 when Officers Sauls, Pinkney and Fields more or less contributed to the death of a subject they were checking out. I knew the man that shot officer Sauls from going to the same shop and I talked with my two friends in Internal Affairs a touch about it after the dust had mostly settled.

EVERYTHING I learned about this incident had me seriously questioning some of APD's procedures, standards and leadership. It also had me questioning the ethics of the officers in question.

OPS later had some integrity checks of officers. They handed in wallets containing money. Some officers turned the wallets in. Some officers tossed the wallets in the trunk of their patrol car, a few, turned the wallets in without the cash , those officers were fired. Good riddance.

I have 4 people that I know that I'd call friends in APD, and I by and large trust the force. They do a hard job, but, there are bad cops and there are people that DO NOT NEED to be cops. Don't give them a pass when the make it clear they're not qualified.

 

[Mark in California]

Lets Talk First

I can see both sides. When wronged I would try to bring my complante to whoever is in charge. If that means talking to the "Desk Sgt" so be it, at least for round 1. Then go to the top and make it formal.

The point being I do not think one normally has to be in fear of their police or at least the management of the Police. Without going to all that trouble, write the man a letter. I did, and the Chief called me out, if I had a problem "with him" make an appointment. I did because I was still pZZZd about my appointment to see him being cancled the very day I made it five years before.

We sat down, I got the lecture of my life starting with "I have had look into your file and..." following thru to I that was bordering on being disrespectful; and then I made my presentation and convinced him I was truthful and trustworthy and he issued me the CCW I had tried to apply for five years before. We both had a laugh about the Captain's response to legal CCW (Unloaded), and that anyone should be able to make a appointment to see the Chief (he wanted to know who cancled it) and cleared the air.

About a decade later I had another Captain decide to not renew my CCW. The dispatcher was amazed that I wanted an interview with the man. I was shown right in, and again made my appeal and left with a re-newed permit. This was all done informally and with no extra paper work about it. Just sat down, had a conversation and we decided to renew my application.

I have in my few personal dealings with the police tried to keep it simple, keep it as informal as possbile and it has worked out in the past.

I had a biger problem with Ford Motors. Even though it was not their fault I wrote the CEO/President a long letter and he had one of his senior people work with me to correct the problem. He did not have to do this, and I could problely not have gotten any other person to ok it at Ford because it was so far out of the program.

In short I can see how some people might feel Intimidated, but I would try the sit down and talk first before I tried to buck the system.

 

[Vex]

If a civilian makes a similar movement during a heated exchange with a police officer, is the police officer justified in using deadly force?

There is no one answer to cover all possible scenarios. It all depends on the officer's articulation of the actions of all actors involved, and the general totality of the circumstances.

 

[John G]

The citizens don't rule the police procedure.

Sad but true. That nebulous entity known as "government" does.

 

[Jeff White]

Vex,
You're wrong, citizens do rule police procedure. There is much of what we do that has been changed by citizen's complaints and lawsuits. And that's the way it's supposed to be.

In fact for all the bad press and bad feelings there are towards the police, I would bet you'd have to look pretty hard to find another entity of the government that is more responsive then your local PD.

Want the plant down the road to stop sending their trucks down your residential street in the middle of the night keeping you up, call the city council, see what kind of response you get.

Want the kids to stop spinning their tires and generally driving like kids on your residential street in the afternoon right after school is out? Call the police, I bet you see a squad car out there slowing things down.

I bet that happens faster then the city council coming up with a solution to the heavy truck traffic keeping you awake at night.

Jef

 

[Vex]

Sad but true. That nebulous entity known as "government" does.

How is this sad? It's best this way. The average citizen doesn't understand that police work is a damn dirty profession, and sometimes it involves some pretty crappy stuff. Compare it to asking a fast food french fry cook to administer a hospital.

Anyway, my point is that the government has procedures, and these procedures are in place for a reason. If a citizen has a complaint, they need to go through the correct procedure and not throw a hissy fit when they don't get their way.

Jeff, what I meant is that the citizen just can't waltz into a police department and demand the procedure be changed to suit their specific needs, not that the citizen has no input on police conduct. Pardon me for not being clear, I'm was really typing all that fairly fast while doing 6 other things.

 

[Sir Aardvark]

In the beginning of the video the reporter states that "Complaint Forms are the recommended policy of the International Association of the Chiefs of Police."
I could not find this policy during a brief search on the IACP web site, but, if true, then it's not like anyone can say that they've never heard of complaint forms before.

This video is quite disturbing, even if one views it as a police-bashing-some-news-team-has-an-agenda item.

Truly, having to state your complaint in person to a police officer could be very intimidating to most people, especially if there is any "attitude" by the attending officer, such as that displayed in the video.

It appears as though certain police departments purposefully initiate a "No Complaint Form" policy for the purpose of intimidating people into not filing complaints, and I believe that this is wrong.

 

[Autolycus]

officer: So leave now. Leave now. Leave now.
tester: I'm not doing anything wrong.
officer: Neither am I. It's a free country.
officer: I'm not in your face. I'm standing on the sidewalk. It's a free country. One more step forward, and you'll see what happens. Take one more step forward.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This was from the Taser/firearm misreporting portion. But what was actually said?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Transcribed by me...
officer: So leave now. Leave now. Leave now.
officer: You better keep walkin, son, before you get yourself in trouble.
tester: I'm not doing anything wrong.
officer: Neither am I. It's a free country.
tester: why don't you just get outta my face, man?
officer: I'm not in your face. I'm standing on the sidewalk. It's a free country. One more step forward, and you'll see what happens. Take one more step forward.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Somehow, the bold portions never made it to the text story.... You have to listen closely but you can hear it.



However the police officer threatened to use a Taser and not a firearm. You can tell by the placement on the belt. It is next to the radio and when his hand reaches for it you can see the radio is next to it. Unless it is a smaller gun like a Glock 26 or possibly a Glock 19. I made a mistake and someone pointed it out on another forum I post on.

Though even a taser seems like excessive force on the officers part as the man was leaving and not threatening the officer. He did tell him to get out of his face but I feel that was warranted as he was leaving and the officer was following him off of the property.

 

[c_yeager]

Making excuses for the type of behavior seen in that video is really kinda sad. One could argue that this was a small sampling of people, but the fact remains that it was not the sort of behavior that is acceptable for people that get paid out of public funds.

How is this sad? It's best this way. The average citizen doesn't understand that police work is a damn dirty profession, and sometimes it involves some pretty crappy stuff. Compare it to asking a fast food french fry cook to administer a hospital.

Interesting analogy. Please explain for the group just how vastly different the qualifications for a job with law enforcement are from employment as a fry cook.

Could they easily be summed up as having a GED and being able to run a 10 minute mile?

Perhaps part of the reason why the job of law enforcement is so difficult in parts of this country is the fact that even regular people dont like cops anymore.

 

[John G]

I thought the police worked for us "average citizens." Looks like I really don't understand.

 

[Autolycus]

Just to lighten the mood up.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/cop-loses-car.html


Lets take a second to catch our breath.

The fact is that some of the cops in the video need to be let go. but not all the cops do. Most of the cops in the video were very proffessional and polite. We cannot condemn all cops for the behavior of some. I do believe that as public servants they must answer to the public but there is evidence that some of the video and the text do not match up. See my previous posting.

 

[Michigander]

Yes, I have changed my mind.

None of the police officers in the story deserve any form of discipline. At least considering that the video/audio had been edited and the "tester" most likely said some stupid, idiotic stuff in order to get the police officer riled up. If the "tester" would have only complied with the police officer's requests, I'm sure he would have had nothing to worry about and we would not be having this discussion.

I'm reminded of a video I once saw on TV where a State Trooper (I think it was West Virginia?) had cited a driver for a moving violation (speeding?) and the driver was livid, to say the least. The driver was cussin', spitting, ranting and raving at the Trooper. The Trooper was completely calm, collected and tried his best to explain the reasons for the citation. Apparently this made the driver even more furious so he tore up his citation and threw it out the window onto the highway. The Trooper calmly told the driver that he would have to pick up the litter or else be cited for littering. The whole time the driver was picking up the torn ticket he was still ranting and raving. The Trooper, was still just as calm as a cucumber and as polite as manners instructor.

I must say, I was truly impressed. The level of courtesy and professionalism this Trooper demonstrated was superb.

I suppose I am wrong for assuming that all police officers should behave in the same polite and professional manner.

 

[spartacus2002]

I'm reminded of a video I once saw on TV where a State Trooper (I think it was West Virginia?) had cited a driver for a moving violation (speeding?) and the driver was livid, to say the least. The driver was cussin', spitting, ranting and raving at the Trooper. The Trooper was completely calm, collected and tried his best to explain the reasons for the citation. Apparently this made the driver even more furious so he tore up his citation and threw it out the window onto the highway. The Trooper calmly told the driver that he would have to pick up the litter or else be cited for littering. The whole time the driver was picking up the torn ticket he was still ranting and raving. The Trooper, was still just as calm as a cucumber and as polite as manners instructor.

I must say, I was truly impressed. The level of courtesy and professionalism this Trooper demonstrated was superb.

I have seen that video; that Trooper deserved an award.

 

[355sigfan]

I work with cop departments on a daily basis (including Miami Dade and City of Miami) and I not a cop and have no desire to be one.
THEY ARE NEVER WRONG!!!
Just ask them.
Arrogant doesn't begin.
I totally do not doubt the TV's version, it plays exactly like some tele-conferences I've been in.
Never Wrong.:banghead:

There called police departments not cop departments. Cops are people we have some jerks,. I was shocked by the video myself. I could never act that way where I am at.

One thing though I disagree with is that if someone files a complaint on me they should have to give their name. Even criminals have the right to face their accusors and defend against the charges. I do not believe people should be able to leave anonomyious complaints. Your probably not doing your job if you don't get some complaints. I would also hazard to quess the departments with the worst service on this video payed the least. You get what you pay for. If you pay officers $10 an hour your not going to get the cream of the crop.
Pat

 

[355sigfan]

Making excuses for the type of behavior seen in that video is really kinda sad. One could argue that this was a small sampling of people, but the fact remains that it was not the sort of behavior that is acceptable for people that get paid out of public funds.



Interesting analogy. Please explain for the group just how vastly different the qualifications for a job with law enforcement are from employment as a fry cook.

Could they easily be summed up as having a GED and being able to run a 10 minute mile?

Perhaps part of the reason why the job of law enforcement is so difficult in parts of this country is the fact that even regular people dont like cops anymore.

Well I don't know many Fry cooks who have to take polygraphs, psychological exams, and detailed background checks. Also to be competative for police jobs you pretty much need a BA or at least a associates degree. As for regular folks not liking cops. I think that varies based on where you live and the departments reputation. I feel most people like us where I work. I am quite friendly with people while I am doing bar checks. The only ones really irritated with us are those under arrest for doing wrong.
Pat

 

[Seven High]

Complaints against police officers

In this day and age, most law enforcement agencier have web sites. A complaint form could be incorporated into their web site. Filing a complaint against an officer should be a fairly easy thing to do. That being said, if the complaint proves to be false, the citizen filing the complaint should then be prosecuted for filing a false report. If the citizen refuses to sign their name to the complaint, the complaint then should not be investigated.

 

[355sigfan]

In this day and age, most law enforcement agencier have web sites. A complaint form could be incorporated into their web site. Filing a complaint against an officer should be a fairly easy thing to do. That being said, if the complaint proves to be false, the citizen filing the complaint should then be prosecuted for filing a false report. If the citizen refuses to sign their name to the complaint, the complaint then should not be investigated.

Thats sounds fair enough.
Pat

 

[Vex]

Interesting analogy. Please explain for the group just how vastly different the qualifications for a job with law enforcement are from employment as a fry cook.

If the police departments were run by the Average Joe, then the left would have their say too. These are the people who want to take away police department funding, guns, tasers, mace, and batons... because they're all not needed when you arrest someone. They want a nicer, friendlier police department that writes loud noise tickets all day long.

Average Joe doesn't want to know what happens when an officer has to make an arrest and the suspect starts fighting. Average Joe doesn't want to hear that sometimes someone gets their butt kicked and there was no way around it. Average Joe doesn't want to believe that in a hostage situation, there are snipers waiting to pull the trigger, because there comes a time when killing is the only way to save people's lives. Average Joe doesn't know what it's like to see a single mother on welfare and on the street selling her body to support her 4 kids. Average Joe doesn't want to believe that his teenage kids take the bus every weekend from their suburban rich lifestyle into the ghetto to buy crack. Average Joe never hears about the thousands upon thousands of children and elderly people who commit suicide because they don't feel loved in this world. Average Joe never had to pull a disabled person out of their trailer when it caught fire, and then watch that person's soul die on the inside as they see all their posessions burn.

Average Joe lives in a dream world, and Average Joe doesn't have a place in running a police department.

 

[buzz_knox]

Average Joe lives in a dream world, and Average Joe doesn't have a place in running a police department.

So, I guess that means the old argument that "hey, we're like you" is a lie?

The "Average Joe" understands all that you've said. Some of them, shudder, have actually done many of the same things without the benefit of uniform (more than a few Average Joes have saved lives from crime or fire). The Average Joe also understands that some people in other lines of employment wield the power they have like a club. Whether it's a lawyer or doctor who thinks they are a deity, a service worker who spits in food, etc. And they understand they can complain about said individuals without being considered as bigoted or ungrateful.

 

[cordex]

I'm confused as to what the problem is here. Is the issue that some departments don't have a pad of complaint forms in the lobby for people to come in and use?

To me the major issue was the manner in which some of the officers reacted to being asked for a complaint form. If they didn't have them, all they had to do was say something like:
"No sir, our department requires that you make your complaint in person to Officer Soandso of our IA department. Would you like me to set up a meeting?"
or ...
"Sorry, we handle complaints against our officers as we would handle a complaint against anyone else. We'll have to open an incident report and to do that I'll need you to give me some basic information. Can we start with your personal information and the name of the officer you're complaining about?"
And if the individual with the complaint continues to waffle and mumble about the form ...
"I'm sorry, sir, our department doesn't provide those forms. Is there anything else I can help you with?"

Some of the departments in the video handled it like that. Some were a little more terse, but handled it in a professional manner.

Some appeared to simply lose their temper and got exasperated because the guy wouldn't do things their way and was so intent on taking a form instead. Not a major problem there either, but certainly not ideal.

I'd be interested in seeing the complete, unedited video, but from what was aired, some of the officers were unquestionably rude, confrontational, argumentative and unprofessional. The first one who looked like he was going for his tazer actually chased the guy out of the building and started following him down the street. What possible good did that do? The Sea Ranch Lakes PD went a little overboard too ... demanding ID from someone who was asking about filing a complaint and then threatening to ticket him?

Do you not see a problem with how either of those specific situations were handled?

Why should police departmens be expected to just hand out blank complaint forms?

Because abuses of police authority are extremely serious and given the apparent closeness of the Blue Line it might be intimidating to sit down face-to-face with a co-worker - possibly a very close friend - of the officer you're complaining about.
I'm curious ... why is it a bad idea to provide easy access to blank complaint forms that can be filled out where the complaintant feels safe?

 

[vynx]

Vex you had me on your side until the Avg. Joe post.

There is an old saying "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen".

Sure its a tough job but you were not drafted - you volunteered, you sought out this job. If its is so bad and too hard to handle then quit and do something else. But do not use that as an excuse to be a bully.

That said, I can understand when a person loses it and gets angry - that is understandable if it happens very seldom. We all are human and can have a bad day or get tired of the one too many dumb questions, attitudes, etc. But, if it happens regularly then you are in the wrong job. This applies to all jobs. Police, Accountant, Auto Mechanic. If the stress is too much get out.

As for the media in this incident, they most likely knew ahead of time what they were trying to create. Too often todays media does not try to report the truth - they create and sensationalze in order to get the public riled up and create higher rating so they can charge higher prices for commercials.
My gut feeling is that is a big part of what happened here.

 

[Huntzman]

Having been on.......

....both sides of the "complaint" issue I can honestly say that somewhere in the middle of this mess lies the truth.

The things that come immediately to my mind is:

1. How many actual tests did they conduct. 10 tests and 10 negative Reponses is a massive problem. 1000 tests and 10 negative is a little less severe.

2. How much was actually edited "for time constraints"? Seems to me that they didn't come up with this on their own. When an investigative news program goes out to uncover something, they are usual tenacious in obtaining what they went out for. Clip and Paste is not only for letter writing. Hardly the battle cry for impartiality.

3. Do any of you honestly trust the veracity of the news? You can't sit here and champion their honesty because it supports your view of police officers, when several threads ago you blasted them for skewing stories / statistics to support gun control legislation.

Granted, no officer should be rude to the public. Some are, and that's unfortunate. I've gone on record here as stating that we don't hire cops from some extraterrestrial temp company. They come from earth. That means that the jerk you knew growing up has just as much chance to be a jerk if he gets appointed to the police department. One poster said he hated all cops. Nothing like "absolutes" - All cops are crooks, all doctors are incompetent, all lawyers are slime, all ceo's corrupt, all waitress' spit on your food,... That's not the world I want to live in.

Many years ago I did the right thing for a civilian. We responded to a complaint, the women said her neighbor had her license plate on their car. But she didn't want to press charges because he was a drug addict and she was afraid he would retaliate against her. Instead of arresting the neighbor for possession of stolen property (and thereby id'ing her in the complaint / court case) we took the plate off the car and set him straight. No biggie for me....... until later that night when she shows up at the precinct filing a complaint against me for improper police action. Why she did this, I have no idea...... but I guess if I followed the line of thinking here I would assume that all civilians were lying wretches who can never be trusted.

As a supervisor I have also handled taking and investigating complaints against officers. Some I would say are true, others are so off the wall that you question how long this person has been out off the psych facility. I preface this by saying when the complainant alleges that the entire incident was witnessed by a group of small furry animals who live in the sewer runoff...... (I'm NOT making this up). Here's a better one for you. In NYC, all complaints (Known & Anonymous) are investigated. The golden rule at IAB is that even a broken clock is right twice a day.... (they assign that little ditty to every complaint). So Complainant A (Anonymous) alleges that Officer Smith was rude to her and threatened to lock her up. End of complaint. What do you do? Yes there is an Officer Smith, that's all we know..... well guess what, Officer Smith gets a complaint in his folder marked Unsubstantiated. Guilty until proven innocent............ How many of you would like to get a complaint at work that stayed with you and might prevent future assignments?

Were some of these guys wrong, yeah probably. But when you come here and make a blanket statement about all cops being (fill in the blank) you become no better than those you protest about.